Winning Souls for Christ

Originally posted by darvlay
You opined that the man would be sent to heaven if he was blissfully ignorant yet would be sent to hell if he was even the slightest bit aware of Christ. How can sending a man to hell by witnessing to him and failing to convert him be a better choice than allowing him to remain blissfully ignorant and reap the rewards of eternal life? If you don't want to ...[text shortened]... witnessing to him would be plucking him from heaven and sentencing him to eternal damnation.

Every person is thrust into the world with their names written in the Book of Lives. One must make a conscious decision to reject that life in order to have their names removed. My reasoning tells me that folks would rather make up their own minds about things than simply be given no option whatsoever. Kind of the nature of freedom, really.

Originally posted by darvlay
Interesting.

How do you reconcile your progressive brand of Christianity with Jesus' words that:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which in" and what does it mean to you when Christ says one must be born of water and the spirit?

The whole context

Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b ] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Originally posted by darvlay
Interesting.

How do you reconcile your progressive brand of Christianity with Jesus' words that:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which in" and what does it mean to you when Christ says one must be born of water and the spirit?

Christs words were directed at the Jews. The rest of humankind did not live under the law of moses. If we look at Genesis we see that our earliest progenitors had no moral law other than their conscience.

If this is true of people living outside of Judeo Christian influence, then they will be judged by how they lived according to their conscience. God being a merciful God will offer forgiveness at judgment, only a fool would say no thanks.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Thanks for the honest replies, guys.

I'm curious to know how our brethren in the Jehovah's Witnesses feel or if there are any Catholics who could chime in.

I also believe in a 'merciful God' who judges people on the light they have received.

"Far be it from you to do such a thing, to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Gen 18:25 (and in Isaiah somewhere I believe)

Originally posted by divegeester
I also believe in a 'merciful God' who judges people on the light they have received.

"Far be it from you to do such a thing, to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! [b]Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Gen 18:25 (and in Isaiah somewhere I believe)[/b]

Sorry, I don't remember asking for the opinion of a shtanky schmuck.

😉

Originally posted by darvlay
Sorry, I don't remember asking for the opinion of a shtanky schmuck.

😉

I was talking to duecer...hell-boy

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Every person is thrust into the world with their names written in the Book of Lives. One must make a conscious decision to reject that life in order to have their names removed. My reasoning tells me that folks would rather make up their own minds about things than simply be given no option whatsoever. Kind of the nature of freedom, really.

What if you change your name?

Originally posted by darvlay
Hypothetical situation for those of the Christian faith:

A young man is born in the jungle amongst his tribe. He has never heard of Jesus Christ. He dies when he is thirty years old as an upstanding member and leader of his tribe. He still has never heard of Jesus Christ. According to your beliefs, what is the likely destination for his soul?

My answer to this will depend a lot upon whether or not his relatives eat him when he dies.

Originally posted by darvlay
Hypothetical situation for those of the Christian faith:

A young man is born in the jungle amongst his tribe. He has never heard of Jesus Christ. He dies when he is thirty years old as an upstanding member and leader of his tribe. He still has never heard of Jesus Christ. According to your beliefs, what is the likely destination for his soul?

Hell
Kelly

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Same place you're headed.

EDIT:
I forgot--- you've been converted. Just changed your mind later. He'll be on the other side of you and heaven.

Finally you are admitting that Christianity is not the default position of man.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Hell
Kelly

Luckly you are not the judge. Here is verse which I have quoted to you fundamentalist Christians (who like to condemn the rest of the world) which clearly contradicts your extremist views, but which you have no explanation for,

This verse states in reasonably plain language that there are many without law ie Law of Moses or Law of Christ but who still follow their conscience and do good works. These people have the law written in their hearts. These people will be judged according to their works.

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Originally posted by darvlay
Hypothetical situation for those of the Christian faith:

A young man is born in the jungle amongst his tribe. He has never heard of Jesus Christ. He dies when he is thirty years old as an upstanding member and leader of his tribe. He still has never heard of Jesus Christ. According to your beliefs, what is the likely destination for his soul?

=============================
Hypothetical situation for those of the Christian faith:
================================

Evangelical Christians should resist the temptation to think that they are obligated to answer all "hypothetical" situations which can be imagined.

We believers in Christ do not have to present an "air tight" and concrete theology which cannot be contradicted by any "hypothetical" imagined scenario.

Obedience to the Lord Jesus' commission to spread the Gospel does not require that we have an absolute consistent theological answer to all imagined situations.

I do not know the answer with certainty to darvlay's hypothetical.

I think the best answer presented was the reference someone made to Abraham's assurance that the Judge of all the earth would do justly (Genesis 18:25).

Having said this, I could point to a particular case in the New Testament where it seems reasonable to interpret that some who did not know Jesus Christ were saved into some of the eternal blessings of a world to come. And that would be the "sheep" in the teaching of Matthew 25:31-46.

I would only tell darvlay that based on the principle of the sheep being saved in Matthew 31:35-46, though not knowing Christ, apparently, it is reasonable, I think, to assume there may be other similar cases.

But I no longer feel that I have to be able to say I know, exactly how God would judge in every hypothetical case humans could imagine. There are some unknowns, IMO.

Originally posted by jaywill
.. I would only tell darvlay that based on the principle of the sheep being saved in [b]Matthew 31:35-46, though not knowing Christ, ...[/b]

Why would you assume Jaywill that the sheep referred to here did no know Christ?

Originally posted by darvlay
Hypothetical situation for those of the Christian faith:

A young man is born in the jungle amongst his tribe. He has never heard of Jesus Christ. He dies when he is thirty years old as an upstanding member and leader of his tribe. He still has never heard of Jesus Christ. According to your beliefs, what is the likely destination for his soul?

Purgatory.

Blah!! There is no purgatory!! 😵

How about letting "The Judge" decide? I have no idea. :'(