Witness Lee and the Lord's Recovery Movement

So now Witness Lee has died and the moving of the Spirit to carry one recovery is still proceeding.

The dissenters like the video speaker will soon have to find someone else to blame.

Lee spoke of the criticism of his "system" so-called. [my bolding]

Some of the dissenters have called my work of the ministry “the system of Witness Lee's ministry.” In 1986 and 1987, while I was in Taipei conducting the full-time training, some of the brothers who carried out the training charged the trainees to be one with the ministry, although I never told the brothers to do that. After that, the dissenters condemned me and the brothers for charging the trainees to be one with the ministry. However, concerning this point I would like to ask: Is it right or wrong to be one with the ministry? Surely it is right to be one with the ministry (Phil. 1:3-5; 2:1-4, 25, 30; 3:17; 4:15-18; Col. 4:2-4).

The dissenting ones then went on to say that such a charge to be one with the ministry meant that Brother Lee was going to make himself the “king” in the Lord's recovery, to control the entire recovery through his training. On March 19, 1989, in his resignation from the eldership in Anaheim, John Ingalls declared publicly, “There has been a pervasive control exercised over the church...This control has not been exercised so much directly, but very much indirectly, through videos, conferences, trainings, and elders' meetings.” John accused me of controlling the churches in the recovery through my videotapes, conferences, trainings, and elders' meetings. In his view I should not minister at all, for whatever I do in carrying out my ministry is to control the churches. Today the dissenting ones are very busy spreading this kind of talk.

Copied without permission from The Ministry of the New Testament and the Teaching and Fellowship of the Apostles
by Witness Lee

https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=22DDC7CA0A

THE SUBTLE WORK OF THE DISSENTING ONES
In the turmoil among us, the intention of the dissenting ones is to condemn me; therefore, they say that the ministry is Witness Lee's ministry. They go even further to say that all the churches who follow Witness Lee's ministry are “ministry churches.” They say that my ministry no longer builds up local churches but builds up “ministry churches.” Once, when several of the dissenting ones came to contact me, they pointed out that in his book The Normal Christian Church Life, Brother Watchman Nee made it clear that the missionaries sent out by the different denominations or missions all built up their “mission churches,” not the local churches (ch. 7). The Presbyterian missionaries built up Presbyterian churches, the Baptist missionaries built up Baptist churches, and the Methodist missionaries built up Methodist churches. All those churches should have been local churches, not denominational churches. Brother Nee said that if all the Western missionaries sent to China would not build up their mission churches but would all build up the local churches, there would be no division. These brothers brought this to my attention. In my response to the brothers, I asked them whether they considered all the churches raised up by my ministry denominational churches and whether they considered my ministry a denominational ministry. I have the full assurance that when I brought the recovery to the United States, I did not carry out a denominational ministry, nor did I raise up denominational churches. What I brought to America was “the ministry.” Through this ministry the Lord brought the work of His recovery to America and has raised up the churches, built up the churches, and nourished and perfected the saints for more than thirty years. The very work that raised up the local churches in America is surely “the ministry.” This being the case, the churches raised up through my ministry are the churches of the ministry and should be one with the ministry.

Now Witness Lee has been gone from the earth since 1997. And the ministry of building up local churches continues. If it is of man it will be stopped. If it is of God you Dariusz and Brent Barber, will not be able to stop it.

(Neither you, atheist agnostic FMF or Unitarian par excellence Divegeester )

Sonship seems rattled by the topic of this thread.

@divegeester

To you Divegeester, I think anyone who is not juiced up from the local pub is "rattled."

Help yourself. I'm fine.

@divegeester

Sonship seems rattled by the topic of this thread.

You're not suppose to feel strongly about anything when in a stupor from the night in the local pub, I guess.

Cool Divegeester. What would we do without him?

@sonship said
@divegeester

Sonship seems rattled by the topic of this thread.

You're not suppose to feel strongly about anything when in a stupor from the night in the local pub, I guess.

Cool Divegeester. What would we do without him?

What are you on about with this “juiced up from the pub” stuff, are you so desperate to lash out that you are picking up on Wolfgang59’s riff about me drinking?

@divegeester

I 'm pretty sure that you've told us yourself that you frequent the bars with some sense of self congratulations and machismo.

Whenever you cavalierly point out "You seem upset" it seems you take great pride in being some kind of mellow, soused up, boozer for whom spending his time in a sense dulling stupor is more important than truth.

Ie. Oh, See? I'm so unrattled and insipid. Maybe you are so un-upset because you stay juiced up. All discussions on hell seem the exception.

Divegeester, and a few other mystery men,

And who is more acting like they're in a secretive cult anyway? My name has been published on this Forum - Jack Wilmore. I have linked to websites in New York, Newton Mass, Dunn Loring VA. who could most likely identify me by name. You could ask someone what kind of a Christian I was among them.

Most of the big mouthed critics here stay shielded in anonymous initials, acronyms, codes and make sure they stay hidden in Internet anonymity.

So who acts more like they're involved in something shady?

You remain shrouded in anonymity and have never ventured to say "HERE in this gathering, they know me by name."

I think YOU'RE the one acting more like you have some secretive cultic involvement to hide.

@sonship said
Divegeester, and a few other mystery men,

And who is more acting like they're in a secretive cult anyway? My name has been published on this Forum - Jack Wilmore. I have linked to websites in New York, Newton Mass, Dunn Loring VA. who could most likely identify me by name. You could ask someone what kind of a Christian I was among them.

Most of the big mouthed critic ...[text shortened]... I think YOU'RE the one acting more like you have some secretive cultic involvement to hide.

There is nothing cultish sir in being anonymous on a website. You are free of course to share personal information, but I would always advise caution when doing so.

Brent Barber, Plenty of us had similar experiences to what you had. Maybe some of us experienced something potentially offensive more then you. We didn't all decide to turn away from the church life.

Any group you go with there will be some who are more brash in saying things and some who are more refined. it is easy to use the brash types as a blanket generalization to condemn the whole group.

James and John were called "sons of thunder". Their talk might have been too bold. Andrew and Phillip had a different way of expressing things, perhaps.

I'm not terribly impressed by even some legitimate instances of someone SAYING something you thought was overboard as to Christians in denominations.

Some remain with us and SHOW us the spirit of universal love toward all believers. Why didn't you overcome to show us along with many positive mature examples among us?

Paul said to look to his pattern not hunt out the worst patterns -

"Be imitators together of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern." (Phi. 3;17)

Okay Dariusz and Brent Barber,

Paul the apostle had co-workers turn away from him. He said a whole region decided to turn away from his ministry. God still used him, didn't he? Did you discard the New Testament because former co-workers of Paul had second thoughts about co-laboring with him?

Second Timothy 1:15 -

"This you know, that all who are in Asia turned away from me, of whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes"

It is not totally clear the extent of this turning away. But it seems to have included two former colleagues of Paul - Phygelus and Hermogenes. Maybe they led some churches in Asia to stop listening to the Paul's ministry.

I'm not devastatingly disappointed if in the past or yet to happen in the future, some trusted co-workers turn away. When the Lord's Spirit is moving it can be expected that some co-workers may withdraw like modern day "Phygelus and Hermogenes."

@sonship said
Okay Dariusz and Brent Barber,

Paul the apostle had co-workers turn away from him. He said a whole region decided to turn away from his ministry. God still used him, didn't he? Did you discard the New Testament because former co-workers of Paul had second thoughts about co-laboring with him?

Second Timothy 1:15 -

"This you know, that all who are in As ...[text shortened]... can be expected that some co-workers may withdraw like modern day [b]"Phygelus and Hermogenes."

Well, as Brent Barber isn't here to respond, do not these words from them carry some gravitas and provoke a little soul searching:

'In the LC, one was persuaded that to be "absolute" and fully consecrated to Jesus, it was necessary to offer up as a sacrifice your most cherished and valuable heart treasures. Thus, it was desirable to publicly denounce friendships and even a spouse as mere "refuse" which must be counted loss in order to gain the Lord. Hereby, the essential bond between family and friends is severed in a cultic dedication, presumably to God.'

Or were that simply making it all up?!

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

'In the LC, one was persuaded that to be "absolute" and fully consecrated to Jesus, it was necessary to offer up as a sacrifice your most cherished and valuable heart treasures.

He cannot possibly believe that we are the only Christians wanting or proclaiming we should be absolute for the Lord Jesus. Was being absolute for the Lord Jesus a concept invented by the local churches? Of course not.

Actually, no one is absolute for God except the Lord Jesus. We all need to abide in Him and enjoy Him as our absoluteness. We have none of our own. We can enjoy His total being given to the will of His Father growing and developing in us.

Naturally, I am not different from anyone else. Left alone I only care about my own skin. And so do all of you. We need the absolute One to live in us.

It is ridiculous to think many Christians meeting not with local churches DO NOT also highly regard being absolute for the Lord Jesus.

We have so many graduates among us who were consecrated to Jesus Christ and were also given to obtain high degrees in education. Lee encouraged getting a good education.

Sometimes saints sacrifice something, true. It is not a legal matter. It is a matter depending on how much grace you have and how much you value Christ as the supremely precious One.

Paul is an example of one who counted all things in comparison to Christ as inferior.

"But what things were gains to me, these I have counted as loss on account of Christ. But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ." (Phil. 3:7,8)

Christ is gentle and wooing. Christ is like a shy dove. The Holy Spirit is easily shewed away. Yet by His gradual wooing we are pleased to give Christ a little more ground in our hearts.

You cannot force consecration on anyone. No one should try. Consecration and dedication to serve Christ is motivated by love for Him. The basis is that we belong to Him. But the motive is love.

It is inspired by accounting and comparison. I am growing to realize nothing and no one can compete with Christ. And to know Christ, to GAIN Christ is most excellent. And I do not boast of complete consecration even now.

Some of us realize that the day is approaching when all the world's people will only want to be close and identified with THAT reigning Wonderful Lord Jesus, the Savior of the World. He is called "the Desire of all the nations" (Haggai 2:7)

We just want in on a good thing early. Pray for me that I would love Him more.

@sonship said
@divegeester

I 'm pretty sure that you've told us yourself that you frequent the bars with some sense of self congratulations and machismo.

Whenever you cavalierly point out "You seem upset" it seems you take great pride in being some kind of mellow, soused up, boozer for whom spending his time in a sense dulling stupor is more important than truth.

Ie. ...[text shortened]... Maybe you are so un-upset because you stay juiced up. All discussions on hell seem the exception.

But you do seem upset, you seem rattled in this thread by the criticism of a church behaving with cult like tendencies.