Witness Lee and the Lord's Recovery Movement

@sonship

Doesn't this trouble you sonship?

Witness Lee has said in his own publications about Christians and Christianity: “We do not care for Christianity, we do not care for Christendom, we do not care for the Roman Catholic Church, and we do not care for all the denominations, because in the Bible it says that the great Babylon is fallen. This is a declaration. Christianity is fallen, Christendom is fallen, Catholicism is fallen, and all the denominations are fallen. Hallelujah!”

@sonship said
@divegeester
Just answer as you recommend - in a binary fashion.
You've had time to think about it.

the Father is God -
the Son is God -
the Holy Spirit is God

Yes or No?
1 or 0 ?
If 0 (No) then which two are not God ?

Yes. Each are titles of the one God.

Anyway thank you for reminding me which thread it was that you finally admitted that a belief in the trinity is necessary for salvation.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

I think that you should include the source of your quotation.

If I just quoted to you that the Solomon wrote that "Money solves everything" (Ecclesiasstes 10:19} and asked if you were bothered that a man of God said this, I would count that as deviously quote mined.

If sensationalism or shock value is your only aim, then I expect you'll continue your practice to quote mine without providing reference for examination.

Below I have a quote for you from Witness Lee which I will furnish where you can go and read more - The Life Study of 1 & 2 Timothy. The bolding is mine. It is about Paul inoculating his co-worker from the spread and deepening decline into degradation of the Christian church.

LIFE-STUDY OF SECOND TIMOTHY
MESSAGE SIX
THE ANTIDOTE OF THE INOCULATION

...

We need to know the Bible not merely according to letters in black and white, but also according to the divine revelation and heavenly wisdom. Do not think that having an advanced degree qualifies anyone to understand a book such as Ephesians. If we study this Epistle only in letters, we shall not be able to understand it. For a proper understanding of this book, and for the Bible as a whole, we need a spirit of wisdom and revelation. This was the reason Paul prayed, “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him, the eyes of your heart having been enlightened” (Eph. 1:17-18). We thank the Lord that for more than fifty years we have been receiving such a spirit of wisdom and revelation. As a result, the messages put out in the Lord’s recovery always contain something fresh and new. These messages are given not merely according to the black and white letters of the Scripture, but according to the spirit of wisdom and revelation.

We in the Lord’s recovery do not treasure theology, tradition, or the councils. We honor, respect, and treasure the holy Word under the shining of the heavenly light which comes by a spirit of wisdom and revelation. Because we depend on God’s enlightenment, His Word is opened to us.

Currently in: Chapter 18 of 28 Section 2 of 3

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

I think that you should include the source of your quotation.

If I just quoted to you that the Solomon wrote that "Money solves everything" (Ecclesiasstes 10:19} and asked if you were bothered that a man of God said this, I would count that as deviously quote mined.

If sensationalism or shock value is your only aim, then I expect you'll con ...[text shortened]... quote]

Currently in: Chapter 18 of 28 Section 2 of 3

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

So you are unfamiliar with the quote I provided.

Strange, as it has been discussed before. How about we just pretend he didn't say it?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

So you are unfamiliar with the quote I provided.

Don't be silly.
Can I know verbatim thousands of pages of ministry from so many publications?

Some things I RECOLLECT having heard. But I could not always say exactly where I heard it.

Strange, as it has been discussed before. How about we just pretend he didn't say it?

Excuse me. I did not "pretend he didn't say it." I asked for the fuller context, the source. You put it in quotations, so I assume you read it somewhere, either quoted by another critic or discovered yourself in an LSM publication.

My bolding this time.

Witness Lee has said in his own publications about Christians and Christianity: “We do not care for Christianity, we do not care for Christendom, we do not care for the Roman Catholic Church, and we do not care for all the denominations, because in the Bible it says that the great Babylon is fallen. This is a declaration. Christianity is fallen, Christendom is fallen, Catholicism is fallen, and all the denominations are fallen. Hallelujah!”

I presume the former.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Strange, as it has been discussed before. How about we just pretend he didn't say it?

How about it is not nearly as "strange" as a guy who doesn't even have any faith in God chasing down a theological education, for what ??

Strange that an Atheist who would care even LESS about the structures of Christian faith would want to criticize a man given his whole life to edify and build up the faith of Christians.

That's strange.

And what we as believers should give utmost care to is the living God rather than religious tradition. Some traditions can seem to go on automatic drive quite WITHOUT any presence of God or infusion of fresh blessing. It happens.

Lee is saying that these dead traditions should not be our chief concern. We care for the living Christ, the living God Who is Spirit. That is not strange. That is quite wonderful.

I too would want to shout Hallelujah.

Or maybe you didn't read - "God is Spirit and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in reality." (John 4:24)

The Son of God said that, Jesus.

Paul, in his letter inoculating Timothy from the degradation of decline of the Christian church said days will come when some have the form of godliness but deny its power. He told Timothy to beware of such because they are empty imposters.

"But know this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boasters, arrogant ... etc. etc. etc. lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, Having the form of godliness, though denying its power; from such turn away." (See 2 Tim. 3:1-4)

Loving the reality of the living God is a antidote from becoming in a "form of godliness" but hypocritically "denying its power" - that is denying God and God's life within to really save and change us.

This the theologically trained Atheist does.
No reason to rejoice there though.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

So you are unfamiliar with the quote I provided.

Don't be silly.
Can I know verbatim thousands of pages of ministry from so many publications?

Some things I RECOLLECT having heard. But I could not always say exactly where I heard it.

Strange, as it has been discussed before. How about we just pretend he didn't say it? [/ ...[text shortened]... fallen, and all the denominations are fallen. Hallelujah!” [/b]

I presume the former.

Do you realize how hilarious it is to hear you of all people asking for the source?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Do you realize how hilarious it is to hear you of all people asking for the source?

I asked for the place I can find the quote.
I assume you don't know because you didn't read anything but the critic's reference to it.

I'll search for it latter. Right now I can see that it must be based on Revlation 19 where the saints of God rejoice because Babylon the Great is being judged. Let's compare:

“We do not care for Christianity, we do not care for Christendom, we do not care for the Roman Catholic Church, and we do not care for all the denominations, because in the Bible it says that the great Babylon is fallen. This is a declaration. Christianity is fallen, Christendom is fallen, Catholicism is fallen, and all the denominations are fallen. Hallelujah!”

Revelation 19:1-4

After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. (v.1)

The world salvation is concurrent here with the judgment of the religious Babylon which the Bible says has corrupted the earth. The rejoicing is at two things:
Positively - the salvation finally come upon the world.
Negatively - the counterfeit religious juggernaut that has corrupted the world is judged.

Witness Lee is using this passage in his expounding about what Christians' attitude should be toward the living God as opposed to dead confused religious hierarchy which has done much damaged and caused much confusion capturing God's own people as Babylon took captive away the Israelites from their Good Land.

For true and righteous are His judgments, for He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and He avenged the blood of His slaves at her hand. (v.2)

Historically Christianity has even been involved in the murder of Christians.
Now if some new atheist points out the evils of, say, the Spanish Insquisition, that is okay with the skeptics. But if the voice in Revelation 19 says God's judgments upon religious Babylon are true and just, that is I guess "sectarian" and "bigotted". Thus we have Ghost as critical.

But the MIXTURE of Babylon the Great harlot HAS to be exposed and judged eventually. By the way - HARLOT is in contrast to BRIDE and WIFE.

This is not an easy matter. You see genuine Christians would all eventually be constituents of the BRIDE and WIFE of Christ but temporarily be caught in the HARLOT who is a counterfeit counterpart of Christ.

Christ does not acknowledge this union with the harlot. He never admits to it because He has nothing to do with it. However, the harlot parades as a counterfeit wife of Christ.

So the matter is really not that simple spiritually. In pictures the Bible shows how God's people can be caught up in something so opposed to God by Satan's activity. Yet in the end they are to "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" (18:4).

Here the raptured saints are rejoicing to the uttermost that they have been delivered from the HARLOT and all of her deception and even MURDER of their fellow believers.

"And a second time they said, Hallelujah! And her smoke goes up forever and ever."

Some of the reins of power were in the hands of unbelievers, counterfeit disciples. Their destiny is eternal punishment. So the smoke of the judgement of illegitimate harlot goes up forever and ever. And the saints REJOICE that deliverance and salvation have come in full.

NOW, given this context, Witness Lee simply echoes the coming rejoicing attitude but partaking of the hope today in saying ...

“We do not care for Christianity, we do not care for Christendom, we do not care for the Roman Catholic Church, and we do not care for all the denominations, because in the Bible it says that the great Babylon is fallen. This is a declaration. Christianity is fallen, Christendom is fallen, Catholicism is fallen, and all the denominations are fallen. Hallelujah!”

NOW ... having said all this, a word of advice. I have learned over the years.

The main reason people do not understand certain things said by a minister like Witness Lee is because they are not in the Bible enough. What he is saying is based right on what is there in the Bible. And people who neglect to really get into the Bible don't understand WHY this or that was said. These are the usual ones to criticize because they simply are not into the word of the Bible enough.

Lee's messages come right out of what is there written in the text of the Bible.

Sand...wonderful sand.

@sonship said
But the MIXTURE of Babylon the Great harlot HAS to be exposed and judged eventually. By the way - HARLOT is in contrast to BRIDE and WIFE.

This is not an easy matter. You see genuine Christians would all eventually be constituents of the BRIDE and WIFE of Christ but temporarily be caught in the HARLOT who is a counterfeit counterpart of Christ.

Ch ...[text shortened]... Bible enough.

Lee's messages come right out of what is there written in the text of the Bible.

Cut through the babble and we have a false prophet saying that Christianity now belonged to Satan and him rejoicing in its downfall. (Hallelujah).

The sole reason for this is to elevate his own recovery movement. Nothing more.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

It is easy for you to write off some quick remark. But it is not easy for you to see that Christians are justified to rejoice that this confused Babylonian Captivity of the Christians will be terminated, judged, and salvation comes in full.

The passage is prophecy. It IS to happen. Whether you approve or not, there will be sooner or latter great rejoicing as God clears up everything on the earth.

So why not rejoice sooner rather than latter?

The rest of the chapter after verse 4's great rejoicing is about the victorious army of overcomers accompanying Christ to the battle of Armegeddon. There the antichrist is defeated finally.

The Bride in heaven is also the accompanying army coming down from heaven with Christ at the end of the age. Hallelujah! Indeed.

"Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." (v.7)

The rejoicing is of the wife who has made herself ready. What a reason for joy and exultation!

"And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean, for the fine linen is the righteousnesses [sic] of the saints." (v.8)

Babylon is judged. And the wife has made herself ready. She is clothed in the righteous deeds of righteous living by the believers. This qualifies them for a marriage dinner of the Lamb and His overcoming saints in heaven.

Ghost may not care. But the Christian church has every reason for exultation at the vindication of their living unto Jesus.

"And he said to me, write, blessed are they who are called to the marriage dinner of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true words of God." (v.9)

Then following the marriage dinner there is the immediate accompanying Christ down from heaven to the holy land to fight the battle against antichrist at Armageddon. And the wedding garment becomes the fighting garment.

The battle garment is the same as her wedding garment.

"And the armies which are in heaven follow Him [Christ] on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (v.14)

The judgment of Babylon the Great, the marriage dinner, the descent with Christ as His armies to defeat Antichrist. That is chapter 19 of Revelation.

Thank God for teachers like Brother Witness Lee.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Cut through the babble and we have a false prophet saying that Christianity now belonged to Satan and him rejoicing in its downfall. (Hallelujah).

That's your twisting slander and misunderstanding.

The sole reason for this is to elevate his own recovery movement. Nothing more.

Should not the Christian, ANY Christian, aspire to be of the multitude rejoicing in heaven with Christ? Why do you condemn Christians who aspire to overcome the degradation and be found above the decline of Christianity?

"After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God." (v.1)

Is it wrong for any Christian to want to be of that multitude?
Is it not loving or sectarian for ANY Christian to want to be in that rejoicing multitude shouting "Hallelujah!"

Do you judge as wrong our aspiring to be of that rejoicing raptured multitude?
Do you, an atheist, intend to out a guilt trip on lovers of Jesus because their hope is to be of that rejoicing multitude?

Why should Witness Lee not hold this before all Christians as a hope? That we would be with Christ as His Wife and Bride, victorious over all mixture, counterfeit, and hypocrisy of the HARLOT of Christiandom?

This is really stupid of you, to accuse of elitism the hope that we would witness from the standpoint of rapture, the salvation come upon the earth and the clearing up of religious chaos which has brought much disrepute to the name of Jesus Christ.