Witness Lee and the Lord's Recovery Movement

Divegeester howls when we sing about a fountain filled with blood, not EXACTLY found in Scripture, but Scripture based.

When "prophet" is used he goes by guilt by association. "Ah, where have we heard about someone's prophet before? Joseph Smith and the Mormons? Charles Russell and the Jehovah's Witnesses."

It all depends on what Divegeester is trying to argue.
He is selective in this much. "Hey, where's THAT in the Bible?"

"You may all prophesy one by one ..." including a very rich speaking by brother Watchman Nee, that many were encouraged. And a rich prophesying of Witness Lee that many learned and many were encouraged and many were built up.

@sonship said
I refer to this as whitewashing the tombs of the prophets.

That sounds really, really bad.

@divegeester

Not as bad as claiming the founder of your now cult church is a "prophet"!!

As usual, assertion - "your ... cult" .

As usual, putting words into my mouth. Please quote me "Watchman Nee was the FOUNDER ..."

Recovery means it was already FOUNDED. It needs to be RECOVERED.

Did I ever say Witness Lee was the FOUNDER of this or that?
Did I ever say Watchman Nee was the FOUNDER of this or that?

You underestimate how carefully I try to write things.
Yes, Nee was instumental in RECOVERING something FOUNDED in the first century and lost.

And SO FAR ... your definition of "cult" is a group venerating a person.

1.) Appreciation is not veneration.
2.) You haven't proved anyway that a cult cannot be the right place to be.

The early churches were called a sect and Paul was called the "ringleader". He was imagined by certain religionists critics as the founder of a cult, a sect, its ringleader.

You're doing much the same.
AND if a "cult" will bring me into the next kingdom age, then I'll be in a cult.

Correction: If I am participating in what I believe God wants some to participate in for His purposes, I don't care if some call it a "cult".

@sonship said
@divegeester

Not as bad as claiming the founder of your now cult church is a "prophet"!!

As usual, assertion - "your ... cult" .

As usual, putting words into my mouth. Please quote me "Watchman Nee was the FOUNDER ..."

Recovery means it was already FOUNDED. It needs to be RECOVERED.

Did I ever say Witness Lee was the FOUNDER of this or ...[text shortened]... I believe God wants some to participate in for His purposes, I don't care if some call it a "cult".

Sigh...

Was Witness Lee a “prophet” of your church, or not?

Perhaps I misunderstood you.

@divegeester

Sigh...

Was Witness Lee a “prophet” of your church, or not?

Perhaps I misunderstood you.

You do misunderstand quite a lot.
It is hard to know where to start. And it is also not too encouraging that you can be made to drop some of your biases in order TO understand.

I prophesy. when I do, I am a prophet in the local church where I exercise to speak forth for God - to prophesy.

My measure is a certain measure. I function within the measure that God has allotted to me and according to the measure of faith that I have.

Witness Lee also could prophesy. Then he is a functioning prophet. Brother Lee also had a measure. In my opinion his measure was much greater then mine. But we are both members of the Body of Christ.

This does not mean Witness Lee was an official, card carrying, automatic "prophet" and permanent "prophet" in the same sense as Joseph Smith was the Church of LDS's official prophet. there is no succession of official prophets in the same way as with the JWs.



What did Witness Lee say about himself? He said we have to tell people that he is our slave. He served the local churches as a slave - our slave and a slave of Christ Jesus.

Witness Lee, Bondslave of Christ

YouTube&t=62s

We miss him. But God's recovery moves ON.

@sonship said
@divegeester

Sigh...

Was Witness Lee a “prophet” of your church, or not?

Perhaps I misunderstood you.

You do misunderstand quite a lot.
It is hard to know where to start. And it is also not too encouraging that you can be made to drop some of your biases in order TO understand.

I prophesy. when I do, I am a prophet in the local church where I ...[text shortened]... b]slave[/b]. He served the local churches as a slave - our slave and a slave of Christ Jesus.

I am aware of how much you enjoy the teachings of Witness Lee and the impact he has had on you, albeit vicariously through your church leaders.

But the final analysis is that, as with all cults, you are not able to speak out against anything they believe. You are indeed in a church cult sonship, I’m sure of it.

@divegeester

Identify something wrong in the teaching according to the Bible.

God's Eternal Plan by Watchman Nee.

Table of contents

Introduction
The Prayer that Expresses God’s Will
What Is God’s Eternal Will
The Son of God and the Christ
The Rebellion of the Angels
God’s Purpose in Creating Man
The Fall of Man
The Work of Christ
The Organization, Goal, and Methods of Satan’s Kingdom
The Position and Responsibility of the Church

The FORWARD contains these words.

FORWARD
... The book contains a series of ten messages from a conference given by Watchman Nee. While the location and date of the conference are unknown, it was most likely conducted in Shanghai in 1939. ...

Sample of Nee's message in this book.

BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
AND FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

God’s Plan Being
before the Foundation of the World

God’s plan was made before the foundation of the world. What kind of plan did God make before the foundation of the world? The first thing God purposed before the foundation of the world was to love the Son. John 17:24 tells us that the Father loved the Son “before the foundation of the world.” The second thing that God purposed before the foundation of the world was to foreordain His Son to be the Christ. First Peter 1:20 says that “before the foundation of the world” God foreordained the Son to be the Christ. However, Ephesians 1:4-5 also tells us that God “chose us” in Christ and predestinated us “unto sonship” before the foundation of the world. (He chose men, but He predestinated them unto sonship.) Not only did God foreordain the Son to be the Christ, He also chose us in Christ and predestinated us unto sonship. Second Timothy 1:9 says that God gave us grace “before the times of the ages.” Titus 1:2 says that God promised us eternal life “before the times of the ages.” He promised that we would participate in His life. These two verses tell us that in order to receive the sonship, God predestinated us unto grace and life. All of these things were purposed by God before the foundation of the world.

More from God's Eternal Plan messages given by Watchman Nee probably in 1939 in Shanghai.
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

“Your Kingdom Come”
God’s goal is to rule over the universe. His desire is to have a kingdom. “Your kingdom come” shows God’s goal and desire. God wants to see His kingdom come soon. Once His kingdom comes, Satan will be overturned (Matt. 12:28). In the age of the kingdom, the overcomers will share Christ’s glory, and Satan will be cast into the abyss and suffer shame. This is God’s goal and desire. God wants man to pray according to this goal and desire. The Lord wants men to pray for God’s kingdom to come to earth, which means for God’s rule to come to earth and for God to gain His kingdom on earth.

“Your Will Be Done, as in Heaven,
so Also on Earth”

God’s will is never hindered in heaven. His will is frustrated from being executed on earth because the earth has been corrupted by Satan. It has been usurped by God’s enemy. However, when the kingdom comes, the earth will be completely recovered, and God’s will and desire will be executed on the earth as it is in heaven. Satan will be bound in the abyss (Rev. 20:3; cf. Luke 8:31, Dan. 10:13) and will no longer be able to frustrate God’s will. Today the Lord wants men to pray for this and to hasten the manifestation of His will.

Section Two
When a man stands on God’s side to contend for His name, His kingdom, and His will, the enemy will attack him constantly. Everyone who makes a stand for God will come under the enemy’s attack. This is why there is the need for protection. If there is no protection from God, we would fail. God protects us in four areas.

@sonship said
@divegeester

Identify something wrong in the teaching according to the Bible.

The claim by your church cult, as written on the statement of beliefs page of their website, that a belief in the trinity doctrine is a requirement for salvation.

I can't believe you even asked that!

Selections from Further Talks On the Church Life by Watchman Nee.

PREFACE includes this:

PREFACE
This publication is a collection of some further talks on the church life given by Brother Watchman Nee within the period of 1948 through 1951. These talks were given more than ten years after the publication of the messages contained in the book entitled Concerning Our Missions (the present title is The Normal Christian Church Life). The talk on the unity of the church, printed as chapter four of this book, was given in the year 1951, a short time before his imprisonment, which began in the early part of 1952.

CONTENTS
1.) The Ground of the Church
2.) The Church in the City and the Church in the House
3.) The Content of the Church
4.) The Unity of the Church
5.) The Service of the Church
6.) The Way for the Work Hereafter

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=1FFFC5

Divegeester wrote:

Nee wrote some good Christian books.

Sample from one of these good Christian books.

Further Talks On the Church Life by Watchman Nee

We must clearly see before God that many spiritual things are in the church, not with individuals. The Lord’s word, “Upon this rock I will build My church,” is very clear and wonderful. The result is that “the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18). This promise is for the church, not for individuals. Many times it is very difficult for individuals to resist the enemy, but as soon as the church appears, Satan is defeated. In these years we do see individuals experiencing blessings, but their blessings are limited. It is only in the church that the blessings are limitless and rich. Therefore, as soon as a person departs from the way of the church, his blessing is limited and God’s presence with him is limited. (I do not say “nonexistent,” but I do say “limited.” ) Furthermore, he is not able to touch many things before God. Please excuse me for speaking very frankly. Especially during the past ten years, I have been watching to see if people know what the church is. Strangely enough, many brothers who have known the Lord for twenty or thirty years do not know God’s church. What they have already obtained has gradually declined, and what they think they have cannot be preserved intact. At the same time, there are other brothers and sisters who know God’s church. The riches of the Head have become their riches, and they are able to go forward continuously.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

@divegeester said
The claim by your church cult, as written on the statement of beliefs page of their website, that a belief in the trinity doctrine is a requirement for salvation.

I can't believe you even asked that!

Stop chucking sand on the fire!

Here's the post you need to reply to...

Again from one of the "good Christian books" by Watchman Nee.
Further Talks On the Church Life

My bolding

Therefore, as soon as a person departs from the way of the church, his blessing is limited and God’s presence with him is limited. (I do not say “nonexistent,” but I do say “limited.” ) Furthermore, he is not able to touch many things before God. Please excuse me for speaking very frankly. Especially during the past ten years, I have been watching to see if people know what the church is. Strangely enough, many brothers who have known the Lord for twenty or thirty years do not know God’s church. What they have already obtained has gradually declined, and what they think they have cannot be preserved intact.

So on the bookshelves of many Christian bookstores one can find "Sit, Walk, and Stand" but cannot find "Further Talks On the Church Life. "

More ...

The Authority of the Holy Spirit
We must realize that where there is not the Holy Spirit, there is not the church. The church is absolutely not Witness Lee, Chang Yu-zhi, or Yu Cheng-hwa; the church must only be the Holy Spirit. In other words, the church from beginning to end can only have one authority, one power, and one life, which is the Holy Spirit. There is only one life of the Holy Spirit, only one power of the Holy Spirit, and only one authority of the Holy Spirit. For example, there are many elderly brothers here today. Brother Du may say, “Since I have been in the church for twenty years, I may make a proposal or initiate something.” This is something extra coming out as a frustration. When Brother Du is expressed, the Holy Spirit is not here and the church is not here as well. Please remember that wherever the Holy Spirit is not, the church is not. The church is the place through which the Spirit of the Lord may express His desires without any hindrance. As the Lord used the body given to Him by Mary when He was on this earth, so He in the Holy Spirit uses the church today. The church in its highest state is the Body of Christ. In other words, only that which is able to express the mind of the Holy Spirit can be called the church.