Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Standard membersonship
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    03 Dec '19 01:381 edit
    Witness Lee, Bondslave of Christ

    YouTube&t=62s

    We miss him. But God's recovery moves ON.
  2. Subscriberdivegeester
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    03 Dec '19 06:43
    @sonship said
    @divegeester

    Sigh...

    Was Witness Lee a “prophet” of your church, or not?

    Perhaps I misunderstood you.


    You do misunderstand quite a lot.
    It is hard to know where to start. And it is also not too encouraging that you can be made to drop some of your biases in order TO understand.

    I prophesy. when I do, I am a prophet in the local church where I ...[text shortened]... b]slave[/b]. He served the local churches as a slave - our slave and a slave of Christ Jesus.
    I am aware of how much you enjoy the teachings of Witness Lee and the impact he has had on you, albeit vicariously through your church leaders.

    But the final analysis is that, as with all cults, you are not able to speak out against anything they believe. You are indeed in a church cult sonship, I’m sure of it.
  3. Standard membersonship
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    03 Dec '19 07:27
    @divegeester

    Identify something wrong in the teaching according to the Bible.
  4. Standard membersonship
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    03 Dec '19 07:371 edit
    God's Eternal Plan by Watchman Nee.

    Table of contents
    Introduction
    The Prayer that Expresses God’s Will
    What Is God’s Eternal Will
    The Son of God and the Christ
    The Rebellion of the Angels
    God’s Purpose in Creating Man
    The Fall of Man
    The Work of Christ
    The Organization, Goal, and Methods of Satan’s Kingdom
    The Position and Responsibility of the Church


    The FORWARD contains these words.
    FORWARD
    ... The book contains a series of ten messages from a conference given by Watchman Nee. While the location and date of the conference are unknown, it was most likely conducted in Shanghai in 1939. ...


    Sample of Nee's message in this book.

    BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
    AND FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

    God’s Plan Being
    before the Foundation of the World


    God’s plan was made before the foundation of the world. What kind of plan did God make before the foundation of the world? The first thing God purposed before the foundation of the world was to love the Son. John 17:24 tells us that the Father loved the Son “before the foundation of the world.” The second thing that God purposed before the foundation of the world was to foreordain His Son to be the Christ. First Peter 1:20 says that “before the foundation of the world” God foreordained the Son to be the Christ. However, Ephesians 1:4-5 also tells us that God “chose us” in Christ and predestinated us “unto sonship” before the foundation of the world. (He chose men, but He predestinated them unto sonship.) Not only did God foreordain the Son to be the Christ, He also chose us in Christ and predestinated us unto sonship. Second Timothy 1:9 says that God gave us grace “before the times of the ages.” Titus 1:2 says that God promised us eternal life “before the times of the ages.” He promised that we would participate in His life. These two verses tell us that in order to receive the sonship, God predestinated us unto grace and life. All of these things were purposed by God before the foundation of the world.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    03 Dec '19 08:042 edits
    More from God's Eternal Plan messages given by Watchman Nee probably in 1939 in Shanghai.
    https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

    “Your Kingdom Come”
    God’s goal is to rule over the universe. His desire is to have a kingdom. “Your kingdom come” shows God’s goal and desire. God wants to see His kingdom come soon. Once His kingdom comes, Satan will be overturned (Matt. 12:28). In the age of the kingdom, the overcomers will share Christ’s glory, and Satan will be cast into the abyss and suffer shame. This is God’s goal and desire. God wants man to pray according to this goal and desire. The Lord wants men to pray for God’s kingdom to come to earth, which means for God’s rule to come to earth and for God to gain His kingdom on earth.

    “Your Will Be Done, as in Heaven,
    so Also on Earth”


    God’s will is never hindered in heaven. His will is frustrated from being executed on earth because the earth has been corrupted by Satan. It has been usurped by God’s enemy. However, when the kingdom comes, the earth will be completely recovered, and God’s will and desire will be executed on the earth as it is in heaven. Satan will be bound in the abyss (Rev. 20:3; cf. Luke 8:31, Dan. 10:13) and will no longer be able to frustrate God’s will. Today the Lord wants men to pray for this and to hasten the manifestation of His will.

    Section Two
    When a man stands on God’s side to contend for His name, His kingdom, and His will, the enemy will attack him constantly. Everyone who makes a stand for God will come under the enemy’s attack. This is why there is the need for protection. If there is no protection from God, we would fail. God protects us in four areas.
  6. Subscriberdivegeester
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    03 Dec '19 08:062 edits
    @sonship said
    @divegeester

    Identify something wrong in the teaching according to the Bible.
    The claim by your church cult, as written on the statement of beliefs page of their website, that a belief in the trinity doctrine is a requirement for salvation.

    I can't believe you even asked that!
  7. Standard membersonship
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    03 Dec '19 08:171 edit
    Selections from Further Talks On the Church Life by Watchman Nee.

    PREFACE includes this:
    PREFACE
    This publication is a collection of some further talks on the church life given by Brother Watchman Nee within the period of 1948 through 1951. These talks were given more than ten years after the publication of the messages contained in the book entitled Concerning Our Missions (the present title is The Normal Christian Church Life). The talk on the unity of the church, printed as chapter four of this book, was given in the year 1951, a short time before his imprisonment, which began in the early part of 1952.


    CONTENTS
    1.) The Ground of the Church
    2.) The Church in the City and the Church in the House
    3.) The Content of the Church
    4.) The Unity of the Church
    5.) The Service of the Church
    6.) The Way for the Work Hereafter

    https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=1FFFC5
  8. Standard membersonship
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    03 Dec '19 08:232 edits
    Divegeester wrote:

    Nee wrote some good Christian books.


    Sample from one of these good Christian books.

    Further Talks On the Church Life by Watchman Nee

    We must clearly see before God that many spiritual things are in the church, not with individuals. The Lord’s word, “Upon this rock I will build My church,” is very clear and wonderful. The result is that “the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18). This promise is for the church, not for individuals. Many times it is very difficult for individuals to resist the enemy, but as soon as the church appears, Satan is defeated. In these years we do see individuals experiencing blessings, but their blessings are limited. It is only in the church that the blessings are limitless and rich. Therefore, as soon as a person departs from the way of the church, his blessing is limited and God’s presence with him is limited. (I do not say “nonexistent,” but I do say “limited.” ) Furthermore, he is not able to touch many things before God. Please excuse me for speaking very frankly. Especially during the past ten years, I have been watching to see if people know what the church is. Strangely enough, many brothers who have known the Lord for twenty or thirty years do not know God’s church. What they have already obtained has gradually declined, and what they think they have cannot be preserved intact. At the same time, there are other brothers and sisters who know God’s church. The riches of the Head have become their riches, and they are able to go forward continuously.


    https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
  9. Subscriberdivegeester
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    03 Dec '19 08:24
    @divegeester said
    The claim by your church cult, as written on the statement of beliefs page of their website, that a belief in the trinity doctrine is a requirement for salvation.

    I can't believe you even asked that!
    Stop chucking sand on the fire!

    Here's the post you need to reply to...
  10. Standard membersonship
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    03 Dec '19 08:321 edit
    Again from one of the "good Christian books" by Watchman Nee.
    Further Talks On the Church Life

    My bolding
    Therefore, as soon as a person departs from the way of the church, his blessing is limited and God’s presence with him is limited. (I do not say “nonexistent,” but I do say “limited.” ) Furthermore, he is not able to touch many things before God. Please excuse me for speaking very frankly. Especially during the past ten years, I have been watching to see if people know what the church is. Strangely enough, many brothers who have known the Lord for twenty or thirty years do not know God’s church. What they have already obtained has gradually declined, and what they think they have cannot be preserved intact.


    So on the bookshelves of many Christian bookstores one can find "Sit, Walk, and Stand" but cannot find "Further Talks On the Church Life. "

    More ...
    The Authority of the Holy Spirit
    We must realize that where there is not the Holy Spirit, there is not the church. The church is absolutely not Witness Lee, Chang Yu-zhi, or Yu Cheng-hwa; the church must only be the Holy Spirit. In other words, the church from beginning to end can only have one authority, one power, and one life, which is the Holy Spirit. There is only one life of the Holy Spirit, only one power of the Holy Spirit, and only one authority of the Holy Spirit. For example, there are many elderly brothers here today. Brother Du may say, “Since I have been in the church for twenty years, I may make a proposal or initiate something.” This is something extra coming out as a frustration. When Brother Du is expressed, the Holy Spirit is not here and the church is not here as well. Please remember that wherever the Holy Spirit is not, the church is not. The church is the place through which the Spirit of the Lord may express His desires without any hindrance. As the Lord used the body given to Him by Mary when He was on this earth, so He in the Holy Spirit uses the church today. The church in its highest state is the Body of Christ. In other words, only that which is able to express the mind of the Holy Spirit can be called the church.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    03 Dec '19 08:482 edits
    Divegeester says Nee produced "some [edited] good Christian books".

    Christian book stores push those on individual spirituality like Sit, Walk, and Stand or The Normal Christian Life. These they like because they will help us to be spiritual Christians.

    There is the blackballing of Watchman Nee's books on the church life in general. Deceived critics would say, "Oh this a latter cultic activity started by Witness Lee"

    Messages given in Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 2) Vol. 22: The Assembly Life & The Prayer Ministry of the Church

    Volume 22 of The Collected Works contains two books by Watchman Nee on the subject of the church. The first book, The Assembly Life, is based on a Bible study conducted by Brother Watchman Nee with the brothers in Shanghai after the Third Overcomer Conference in January 1934.


    CHAPTER FOUR
    THE BOUNDARY OF THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY


    Tonight we will discuss the mutual relationship between the meeting in Gordon Lane and that in Wen-teh Lane. In other words, we will speak on the boundary of the local church or the extent of the border of the local church. Before we speak on this matter, there are a few things which we need to explain to the brothers from out of town. Our Bible study, at this moment, is designed especially for the local brothers. Therefore, many of the things that are covered are local in nature. However, we welcome the out-of-town brothers to come and listen.

    I have mentioned three to five times already that the authority of the elders is for the local assembly. In other words, the elders are for the local assembly. Position is a matter related to the local church, and office is also a matter related to the local church. One can be an elder in Shanghai, but he cannot automatically be an elder when he goes to Nanking or Peking. A person who serves as an elder in the assembly in Shanghai cannot go to the assembly in Peking and assume the same eldership. God's gifts are for the whole church, while His offices are for the local churches. Hence, there is no such thing as a super elder who can control an out-of-town church. An elder can oversee only the church in his own locality.

    THE BOUNDARY OF THE ASSEMBLY

    The Bible study tonight is on the boundary of the assembly, and it is limited to the local assembly only. We hope that God will show us this truth. Because we are afraid of careless misunderstandings or forgetfulness, we will repeat once again what we have mentioned: gifts are for the whole church, while offices are for the local churches.

    What is the extent of a local church? How big of an area constitutes the sphere of a local church? We would draw the brothers' and sisters' attention to the fact that in the Bible, the church is never divided into regions. The Bible never groups a few churches together under a regional organization. Although there were seven churches in Asia, we do not see the Bible appointing Ephesus or Philadelphia to rule over the other six churches. We only see seven churches, with seven lampstands. These seven lampstands represent the seven churches (Rev. 1:12, 20). In the Old Testament, one lampstand was divided into seven branches. In the New Testament, there are seven lampstands, not one lampstand with seven branches. This means that the seven different churches are shining by themselves and each one is responsible to Christ by itself. Every church is governed by Christ alone and is not under the control of any other church. In administration, every lampstand is independent and not under the control of any other lampstand. Every one of them is responsible to the Son of Man alone, who walks in the midst of the seven lampstands. They are responsible only to their High Priest. No church is responsible to another church. Although they are seven churches, they have not joined themselves to become one united church, and they are not responsible to some higher synod or convention. Each one of them is a so-called congregation, an assembly whose boundary is the locality. The Bible takes the city or the smallest administrative unit as the boundary of a local church. A local church is the basic unit of the church in the Bible. No local church is joined to another church or regards another bigger church as the central church. In other words, in God's eyes, Rome has never been appointed to be the central church. God has never acknowledged one place as the center of all churches, with that place ruling over and controlling all the other assemblies. According to God's organization, there is no center on earth. Jerusalem was not the central church at that time.
  12. Standard membersonship
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    03 Dec '19 09:266 edits
    @divegeester

    But the final analysis is that, as with all cults, you are not able to speak out against anything they believe. You are indeed in a church cult sonship, I’m sure of it.

    You do not differentiate the right of the worker to have colleagues working in coordination with him or herself.

    Paul told Timothy to charge certain WORKERS who were supposedly coordinating with Paul, not to teach different things (1 Timothy 1:3). He did not say put them out of the church. He said if they want to work along side with me as my co-partner they should not teach differently.

    FURTHERMORE, Witness Lee was exceedingly tolerant allowing some to pursue their dissenting path. This longsuffering and tolerance sometimes caused considerable suffering of believers under their care.
  13. Standard membersonship
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    03 Dec '19 09:281 edit
    If the SAINTS taste something unhealthy and say "We have tasted your variation and it is not as healthy as the food we had before." That is the Body expelling something unhealthy. And even there that is not excommunication. That is just one has brought upon himself some adverse reaction because what he teaches is not as HEALTHY.

    You may speak something different. You may have the ears of some. But some may not give you the ear though they receive you as a brother in the Body of Christ and they have every right to remain in the local assembly unless damaging disruption calls for the local elders to ask you to stop doing that.

    And none of this is "veneration". It may be rejecting what is unhealthy.

    Paul about two of his co-workers he says "misaimed" and overthrew the faith of some of the dear believers.

    "But avoid profane, vain babblings, for they will advance to more ungodliness.

    And their word will spread like gangrene, of whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus, Who concerning the truth have misaimed, saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and overthrow the faith of some." (2 Tim. 2:16-18)
  14. Standard membersonship
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    03 Dec '19 09:324 edits
    Paul did not say put them out of the local church. He did say that they were causing damage like the spreading of gangrene overthrowing the faith of some of the saints. And it was good to AVOID them and the spread of their talk.

    You would say this is Paul not allowing to be in the local church if you did not agree with Paul. But there were co-laboring colleagues or men that he had appointed some responsibility. And harmony with healthy teaching as Paul taught was his requirement to be HIS co-working, co-laboring colleague.

    By reading the New Testament we see a servant of God tolerating quite much dissenting. The church in Corinth criticized Paul to the point that he said he would be willing to spend all for them though they love him less.

    Paul latters says that all Asia turned away from him (2 Tim. 1:15). It is not completely clear what he meant. But it probably meant that his influence in churches there or the co-workers had been damaged to the point that the whole region dissented from him. Or those in leadership offices turned away from Paul.

    I thank God for the frankness of the New Testament record. We can see what happened and not be shocked when something similar happens in modern times.
  15. Subscriberdivegeester
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    03 Dec '19 13:25
    FIRE SAND!!!!
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