Witness Lee and the Lord's Recovery Movement

@divegeester

I want to talk with someone sober minded.
You're not sober minded about this imo.

They do not have to agree with everything I write. But I want them to be clear minded and soberminded. I am beginning to doubt that you are.

And I doubt that you speak honestly about what you have read.

Just keep affirming "cult, cult, cult". That is really all you have Divegeester.

But you better find a better definition of the word if you want to use it for your accusation towards the local churches.

Appreciation is not worship necessarily. The New Testament tells the Christians to hold faithful workers in high esteem.

@sonship said
@divegeester
I want to talk with someone sober minded.
You're not sober minded about this imo.
They do not have to agree with everything I write. But I want them to be clear minded and soberminded. I am beginning to doubt that you are.
And I doubt that you speak honestly about what you have read.

Are you going to troll me about my "barren wife" next?

I've read:

Sit, Walk Stand and the Normal Christian life. Both about 20 years ago.

So what??

@divegeester

Are you going to troll me about my "barren wife" next?

I have not the slightest idea of the meaning of the "barren wife" reference. If you are confusing me with some other poster, that's not my fault.

@divegeester

I've read:

Sit, Walk Stand and the Normal Christian life. Both about 20 years ago.

So what??

Why was it like pulling teeth to get you to name what you read?

And who are you lashing out at about being trolled concerning some "barren wife" matter ?

Mostly though, how come what Watchman Nee teaches in Sit, Walk and Stand and The Normal Christian Life is good for Christians? But dozens of books by Witness Lee teaching exactly the same are the work of cult making ?

Witness Lee showed us practically how to get INTO the "Sit, Walk, and Stand" revelation. Witness Lee showed Christians HOW to get into the Normal Christian Life.

And importantly Watchman's other book "The Normal Christian CHURCH life" [my emphasis], Witness Lee helped us to get into it practically.

In my opinion as great book was as The Normal Christian Life, the English translation of Witness Lee's book "The Experience of Life" is the single best treatise on the Christian life I have ever read.

Normal Christian Life is very good.
You should read Witness Lee's "The Experience of Life" for a logical outlay of the most crucial themes of the Christian walk.

Sit, Walk, and Stand I have not read through. But Nee's "The Normal Christian Church Life" is mirrored wonderfully and elaborated on in content wonderfully by Witness Lee's "The Practical Expression of the Church".

And No, I do not believe Nee founded no cult but that bad ole Witness Lee, why HE founded a cult.

That is baloney. They walked in the same steps and labored in the same way. And they received the SAME criticism from essentially ignorant and petty people who have controversy with the clear teaching of the New Testament. They misdirect their wanting to BLAME someone for what the NT tells us.

I've read:

Sit, Walk Stand and the Normal Christian life. Both about 20 years ago.

So what??

So what? When servants of God secure for Christ in various cities, believers who are entering into the Sit Walk and Stand experience, the Brent Barbers and Divegeesters of this world cry "cult, cult".

So what? When faithful servants of Christ secure local churches around the globe where Christians are together entering into the Normal Christian Life the Brent Barbers and Divegeesters around hand wave - "cult, cult, cult".

You don't want to see the practicality of Christians entering into the experience of these great ministry books. If they do, you want to brand them as a man venerating cult.

That's wrong.

@sonship said
@divegeester

I've read:

Sit, Walk Stand and the Normal Christian life. Both about 20 years ago.

So what??

Why was it like pulling teeth to get you to name what you read?

And who are you lashing out at about being trolled concerning some "barren wife" matter ?

Mostly though, how come what Watchman Nee teaches in Sit, Walk and Stand ...[text shortened]... ching of the New Testament. They misdirect their wanting to BLAME someone for what the NT tells us.

Why was it like pulling teeth to get you to name what you read?

Because I still have no idea what you are driving at.

Mostly though, how come what Watchman Nee teaches in Sit, Walk and Stand and The Normal Christian Life is good for Christians? But dozens of books by Witness Lee teaching exactly the same are the work of cult making ?

I haven't said Lee's "books were cult-making"

Witness Lee showed us practically how to get INTO the "Sit, Walk, and Stand" revelation. Witness Lee showed Christians HOW to get into the Normal Christian Life.

I've not read any of his books but I accept that you have and that you like them

And importantly Watchman's other book "The Normal Christian CHURCH life" [my emphasis], Witness Lee helped us to get into it practically.

If you say so, I haven't read that book.

In my opinion as great book was as The Normal Christian Life, the English translation of Witness Lee's book "The Experience of Life" is the single best treatise on the Christian life I have ever read.

I am already aware of your veneration of Lee and his teachings

Normal Christian Life is very good.
You should read Witness Lee's "The Experience of Life" for a logical outlay of the most crucial themes of the Christian walk.

For what reason? I think you are in a cult and I don't find you to be a particularly effective exponent of the Christian experience.

Sit, Walk, and Stand I have not read through. But Nee's "The Normal Christian Church Life" is mirrored wonderfully and elaborated on in content wonderfully by Witness Lee's "The Practical Expression of the Church".

I don't remember much about the NCL except that I felt it to be an extension of the controlling spirit elsewhere in denominational Christendom.
However SWS is an excellent book expounding on the book of Hebrews.

And No, I do not believe Nee founded no cult but that bad ole Witness Lee, why HE founded a cult.

I'm aware that you are very protective of the man and teachings of Witness Lee

That is baloney. They walked in the same steps and labored in the same way. And they received the SAME criticism from essentially ignorant and petty people who have controversy with the clear teaching of the New Testament. They misdirect their wanting to BLAME someone for what the NT tells us.

The problem we are discussing is primarily with the leadership of your church and it's influence over you. Any true ministry of God becomes contaminated and bastardised as it is passed through human hands and fleshly vainglorious ambitions.

@sonship said

I've read:

Sit, Walk Stand and the Normal Christian life. Both about 20 years ago.

So what??

So what? When servants of God secure for Christ in various cities, believers who are entering into the Sit Walk and Stand experience, the Brent Barbers and Divegeesters of this world cry "cult, cult".

So what? When faithful servants of Christ secure local ...[text shortened]... great ministry books. If they do, you want to brand them as a man venerating cult.

That's wrong.

I have no idea who Brent Barber is, what you are blithering on about or why it in anyway connects my reading of two books 20 years ago with you being in a church cult today.

Folks, this is what has happened in brief terms.

The Western Christians liked Watchman Nee's books on personal spirituality. These they admired. They opposed his ministry on the practicaly building of local churches, which emphatically meant "one city / one church".

Secondly, they hijacked the phrase "local church" and said to themselves "Hmmm, this is a useful term. From now on we will call all the denominations local churches." So they lifted the phrase, suppressed the books, and put forward the books on personal spirituality.

Witness Lee came and stressed not only the ministry to build up personal spirituality, but was FAITHFUL to stress also the establishing of local churches (one city / one church). The Western critics pretended that this was a new idea.

Thus being under this kind of persuasion Divegeester adopted the concept - Ie. "Watchman Nee? Ah good Christian books! All on personal spirituality. Witness Lee, bad - cult making, being venerated, etc. etc. ... a cult."

He is deceived by the tactic of the whitewashing of the tombs of the prophets. That is the effort to drive a artificial wedge between these two workers who labored on exactly the same thing - rich spirituality for the building of practical local churches just as the New Testament shows.

@sonship said
Folks, this is what has happened in brief terms.

The Western Christians liked Watchman Nee's books on personal spirituality. These they admired. They opposed his ministry on the practicaly building of local churches, which emphatically meant "one city / one church".

Secondly, they hijacked the phrase "local church" and said to themselves [i] "Hmmm, this is a useful ter ...[text shortened]... ng - rich spirituality for the building of practical local churches just as the New Testament shows.

You're saying divegeester is "whitewashing the tombs of the prophets"? That sounds really, really bad.

@sonship said
Folks, this is what has happened in brief terms.

The Western Christians liked Watchman Nee's books on personal spirituality. These they admired. They opposed his ministry on the practicaly building of local churches, which emphatically meant "one city / one church".

Secondly, they hijacked the phrase "local church" and said to themselves [i] "Hmmm, this is a useful ter ...[text shortened]... ng - rich spirituality for the building of practical local churches just as the New Testament shows.

do you agree with the teaching of your church that a person MUST accept the doctrine of the trinity as a prerequisite to salvation?

Yes or No?

You disagree but you won't answer because you are in a cult. Simple.

@fmf said
You're saying divegeester is "whitewashing the tombs of the prophets"? That sounds really, really bad.

Not as bad as claiming the founder of your now cult church is a "prophet"!!

Sound familiar at all???

@FMF

1.) Watchman Nee began to teach two things -
a.) Deep personal spirituality as few had been able to.
b.) Deep persoan spirituality FOR the building of local churches - Christians where they live meeting together.

2.) The resentful traditional Christianity accepted and welcomed books on how to be deeply spiritual. But they balked at anything telling them that divisions, denominations, and kinds of churches other than locality based churches were unscriptural.

3.) When Nee died they spoke glowingly about how good his books were on personal spirituality and suppressed his other messages on the local churches. They circulated that these books were good but the others should not be read.

4.) They hijacked his term "local church" and used it INSTEAD to justify keeping denominational divisions.

5.) Witness Lee, surviving Nee continued, continued effectively the well balanced approach - spirituality / practicality.

6.) The rumor continues - "Oh but Watchman Nee wrote such good Christian books on how to be spiritual. But this other guy Witness Lee he started a cult. Nee we like. Lee we don't. See ? They speak highly of him because they venerate him as a godlike "saint" on a pedestal." Just give us Nee's ministry on personal spirituality and allow us to keep demomational divisions as normal."

I refer to this as whitewashing the tombs of the prophets.
Soon the same thing will occur with Witness Lee as he is now gone and many of his teachings are gradually showing up on radio, in pulpits, in books by people who recognize the value.

But they will probably find someone else to blame for Christians understanding the mighty truth of one city / one church.

Lastly, it is not necessary that all Christians take the way Nee and Lee showed us. If a remnant take it I believe it will bring back the Lord Jesus to this earth.

This will be for the benefit of ALL the brothers and sisters and for all the world for that matter. It is a spiritual warfare. Our fight is not against flesh and blood. Men react on the basis often from spiritual conflicts. They often are unaware of this manipulation.

I'm gone for the rest of the morning.

@divegeester

Not as bad as claiming the founder of your now cult church is a "prophet"!!

Sound familiar at all???

Read your New Testament sometime.

"You may all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged." (1 Cor. 14:31)

The church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets.

You rely on vernacular usage of religious terms too much. You should read the New Testament and let that be your dictionary more.

See? This is why we appreciate Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and others who do not sway to the vernacular usage of biblical terms but allow the Bible to define what is meant by a word.