@kellyjay said2 points Kelly:
I'm not speaking about the movement
1. My post wasn't directed at you.
2. The 'movement' is referenced in the title of the thread.
@sonship saidDo you accept that the testimonials that are critical of your cult are written by people honestly and with knowledge of what they are criticizing?
Now if we get into just trading testimonials your buddy FMF will whine that I am spamming the board with testimonials.
Do you think that, by posting testimonials that are supportive of your cult, you are somehow dealing head-on with the content of the testimonials that are critical of it?
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidActually you invited me to look at the post as an answer to a question of mine directed at you.
2 points Kelly:
1. My post wasn't directed at you.
2. The 'movement' is referenced in the title of the thread.
I'm content with you answering my first question and ignoring the rest. What was so bad about the thing we first started talking about?
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This is at best an unfortunate interpretation of scripture. At worst, it's heracy. [Yet, it's another example of the aberrant nature of some of Witness Lee's teachings.
The Christian believer, according to the Apostle Peter are "partakers of the divine nature"
" ... Him who has called us to His own glory and virtue. through which he has granted top us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature ... " (2 Pet. 1:3c,4a)
not sharing God's Godhead, the believers DO partake of God's "divine nature". They do not just observe it or worship it or admire it. They PARTAKE of it.
The birth of cows and goats can hardly be compared to the mystery of spiritual rebirth.
Witness Lee's point is well taken. The offspring inherit the nature of the pareent.
The cat produces an offspring of the CAT kind.
The horse reproduces an offspring of the horse kind.
In an undeniable sense what the OFFSPRING is shares in the nature of the PARENT.
"But as many as received Him, to these He the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name. ... who were begotten ... of God." (See (John 1:12,13) .
Being born of God grants authority from God to become children begotten by God. They share God's life and nature but not His Godhead or position.
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal. 3:26,27)
Believing into Christ we are plunged into a living Person to be clothed in Him and become a son of God like Him.
God sends the Spirit His Son into our hearts.
"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba Father," (Gal. 4:6)
Maybe the atheist Ghost thought to be born of God just means to get a ticket saying "Admit One to Heaven".
No, one part of the believer's being becomes God. By way of mingling and union, I say one innermost part of the Christian becomes God.
"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
The deadened human spirit become joined to the Holy Spirit. And the two - the regenerated human spirit and the Holy Spirit who is God, become "one spirit". No wonder they are now "partakers of the divine nature"
As I recall from Genesis 1, man's body was formed of the dust of the ground, not physically born of God.
The creation of man in the image of God and in the likeness of God is NOT the regeneration of man by God entering into man to become "one spirit" with man. Adam was created very good, very neutral, and very innocent. No problems.
But he was not born of God yet but an innocent neutral good creation.
In the New Testament the divine life that is imparted into man's innermost being will eventually SWALLOW him up entirely -
"For also, we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desi[re to be unclothed, both clothed upon, that what is moral may be swallowed up by life." (2 Cor. 5:4)
In the meantime the spirit that has become divine life is the PLEDGE and FORETASTE of this consummate swallowing up to come.
"Now He who has wrought us for this very things is God, how has given to us the Spirit as a pledge." (v.5)
The human spirit of the Christian is life because of justification -
"But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness." (Rom. 8:10)
At the end of transformation and conformation the Christian's physical body will too be swallowed up in the divine life of the begetting Father. The corruptible will put on in corruption.
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Cor. 15:52,53)
Poor atheism! To be cheated by the dying liars of unbelief.
So from the center to the circumference God's life and nature saturates the offspring. Christ will sanctify, permeate, spread, and ultimately resurrection and glorify the ones begotten to be God's sons.
"For our commonwealth exists in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself.: (Phil,. 3:20,21)
Poor atheism. Having no such hope to look forward to they lash out in cynicism to discredit believers who faithfully teach the word of God.
The only way I can see for Witness Lee's analogy to hold up would be for the man Jesus to marry a human female and procreate, thus producing "children of God." Ridiculous!
This is pathetic stumblings of the unenlightened natural mind. The New Testament says that NOW the believers as children of God (no physical female involved). And we SHALL be like Christ for we shall see Him in glory as He is.
"Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God, and we are.
Because of this the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that if He is manifested, we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is." (1 John 3:1-2)
Our glorification and manifestation we have not seen yet. Though we did get a glimpse of Christ in glory in the Mountain of Transfiguration when He took three disciples aside to show them "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom"
If we live by that invisible glory of His Spirit we will be marveled by each other and the world at the time of the second coming of Christ. But some may be tardy, late, and need remedial time.
"When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day." (1 Thess. 1:10)
What does "only begotten Son" mean, anyway?
The only begotten Son means ONLY and UNIQUE. Christ will always forever be that unique Only Begotten Son in that sense He was God incarnated. However Christ has MANY statuses. And He is ALSO the FIRSTBORN Son of many brothers -
"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)
The Onlybegotten Son has another honor. That is being the FIRSTBORN among MANY BROTHERS. When He comes again He is leading many brothers into the divine glory as the Firstborn coming into the inhabited earth.
"And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, He says, And let all the angels of God worship Him." (Hebrews 1:6)
And again, He leads many sons into glory.
"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author [or Captain] of their salvation perfect through sufferings." ( Heb. 2:10)
Witness Lee's paragraph is not bonkers. The poor atheist has nothing but a hope someone will come along to mock for him a faithful teacher of the word of God.
Doesn't that mean He begat ONLY ONE? We became His children by being born of the Holy Spirit.
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Doesn't that mean He begat ONLY ONE? We became His children by being born of the Holy Spirit.
In Revelation 19 Christ comes again with many diadems. That is many crown like reefs upon His head. The symbolism is that He has MANY honors. Being the Only Begotten Son is one. Being the Firstborn of all creation and the Firstborn from the dead are also His.
No one said the Bible is always easy to understand.
The only begotten reigns on the planet as the Firstborn Son -
"And from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth.
To Him who loves us and has released us from out sins by His blood and made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father, to Him be the glory and the might forever and ever. Amen." (Rev. 1:5,6)
Christ came to duplicate Himself as the standard prototype of the man mingled with God the God-man. He came to mass produce many sons like Himself yet not sharing His unique only begotten-ness -
"Truly, truly I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." (John 12:24)
This shows that Christ considered His death not only redemptive, as to the shedding of His blood for forgiveness. But He also taught it to be the release of the divine life concealed within the shell of His humanity. That is might propogate and duplicate Himself as the God-man. Many grains as much fruit was also a goal in Him dying.
As a grain He fell into the ground and the life concealed in the shell of His humanity was released into many sons.
In eternity God will have many sons of God of which you could be one also.
"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me." (Rev. 21:7)
So as not to get a wrong impression He also says "sons and daughters" elsewhere.
Sons means the same life not male.
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@kellyjay saidNo, I didn't.
Actually you invited me to look at the post as an answer to a question of mine directed at you.
I continued to post testimonials.
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidNot true.
No, I didn't.
I continued to post testimonials.
There was a post I questioned you on, and asked.
kellyjay said
"What about this do you find bonkers?"
You had referred me to a post with the following and I responded again.
ghost said, "Read above."
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Ghost's champion "chap" says -
This is at best an unfortunate interpretation of scripture. At worst, it's heracy. Yet, it's another example of the aberrant nature of some of Witness Lee's teachings.
However, Fuller Theological seminary, after in depth study of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee's writings concluded:
It is the conclusion of Fuller Theological Seminary that the teachings and practices of the local churches and its members represent genuine, historical, biblical Christian faith in every essential aspect. One of the initial tasks of Fuller was to determine if the portrayal of the ministry typically presented by its critics accurately reflect the teachings of the ministry. On this point we found a great disparity between the perceptions that have been generated in some circles concerning the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and the actual teachings found in their writings. Particularly, the teachings of Witness Lee have been grossly misrepresented and therefore most frequently misunderstood in the general Christian community, especially among those who classify themselves as evangelicals. We consistently discovered that when examined fairly in the light of scripture and church history, the actual teachings in question have significant biblical and historical credence. Therefore, we believe that they deserve the attention and consideration of the entire Body of Christ.
Copied verbatim by hand from [not pasted] -
Statement from Fuller Theological Seminary at
https://contendingforthefaith.org/en/statement-from-fuller-theological-seminary/
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@kellyjay saidKelly, it is these misunderstandings by yourself that have led me to step back from communicating with you. My recent interactions in this thread have been with sonship and have merely circumnavigated around you.
Not true.
There was a post I questioned you on, and asked.
kellyjay said
"What about this do you find bonkers?"
You had referred me to a post with the following and I responded again.
ghost said, "Read above."
If a post was meant for you it would be posted as a reply.
'Read above' was me directing you to the post I had already made to sonship.
@sonship
Part of a testimonial from an escapee of the Witness Lee cult:
'There is much fear talk warning of members who have left the group and met with horrible fates. I remember growing up hearing dramatic tales of the inevitable judgment of anyone who was foolish enough to leave God's eternal purpose. They had all met violent, brutal deaths. No detail of their suffering was spared as these stories were circulated to further cement and enforce permanent group membership.'
(Source already provided).