Working with a YEC

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
thats your opinion of course

youre entitled to it even if you are wrong.
your entire argument rests on the fact that either we believe the bible to be the exact word of god, we we dismiss it entirely as fabrication. did you processed this thought much? if someone is lying one time, that someone can never tell the truth anymore? do you find that there ar ed not only every christian, but also muslim, jew, in fact every spiritual person in the world.

Excuse me but what on earth are you talking about Z?

1) For clarity: I used to be an athiest many years ago, but now I am a Bible believing christian who accepts that book to be the inspired and protected word of god to mankind. I also believe that Jesus is the invisible god made visible, in whom the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in bodily form, as explained in the Bible.

2) Jesus/God never lies, not even white lies ("God is light and in him there is no darkness at all" Jn 1:5).

3) I fail to see how my defense of the Bible as the whole truth of God, and in which his actions including creation are revealed to man, is in anyway insulting to Christians.

4) I do not hold you in derision Z, I don't even know you, I just find your stated duplicitous approach to the word of god worthy of derision.

Finally, please explain what: "and you hold me worthy of derision with the almost died of overexposure to pure atheist awesomeness." means as it makes no sense to me.

Originally posted by divegeester
Excuse me but what on earth are you talking about Z?

1) For clarity: I used to be an athiest many years ago, but now I am a Bible believing christian who accepts that book to be the inspired and protected word of god to mankind. I also believe that Jesus is the invisible god made visible, in whom the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in bodily form, as e ...[text shortened]... almost died of overexposure to pure atheist awesomeness." means as it makes no sense to me.

sorry, i just assumed you were an atheist. still, that changes very little in my argument.

you are not an atheist who believes religious people are ignorant and brainwashed, even those that realize the bible is a collection of fairy tales, you are one of those brain-washed people. you are no longer insulting the christians(better said the spiritual people) you have become the fuel for their insults.

1) what changed? did god descended down on a silver cloud and told you he existed? did you witnessed a miracle? what happened? why christianity and why not hinduism or islam? what changed so that eveyrthing you dismissed before as absurd, you now hold as absolute truth?

2) you are right, jesus and god need not lie. except when they do. like the time he told abraham to kill his son and then told him sic, i never meant for you to kill him. when he said divorce is cool and then his son said it is not. when he told the guys that infiltrated jericho to lie about their origins. in him there is no darkness, however we find that once in a while genocide is awesome (jericho for example) the killing of the egyptian first borns, the wiping of the entire population of earth in the flood, etc. from the same bible we find out that sons are responsible for their parents sins until the 7th generation, that women are to be the property of their fathers or husbands (Lot offering his daughters to the rapists of Sodomah is priceless)

you are right, just not the way you think. there is no darkness in god, and god doesn't lie. however humans do lie and they have plenty of darkness to go around. like the savages who wrote Leviticus and Deuteronomy (whichever has the awesome and just laws). the bible is written by those men. and instead of denouncing them as criminals you consider god inspired them and not only that. he had a plan that involved stoning a woman to death for adultery or killing someone that picked food on Sabbath

3) i found it insulting when i thought you were an atheist and i find it insulting now when you consider that the human condition resumes to pissing on God's gifts to us and rereading the bible over and over and not discovering anything. perhaps later when a deadly disease appears we can say "we have no idea how to cure it but it really appears intelligently designed"

4) duplicitous? i believe in jesus. but i dont believe the earth was created in 6 days and god littered the earth with proof to the contrary just to mock me. that is not duplicitous it is called having a brain and discerning the obviously flawed ideas from the good ones.

i mocked your statement that you hold me worthy of derision without the almost. almost died of overexposure to pure atheist awesomness(that isn't true of course, but atheist can be replaced with religious zealot and is the same thing)

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
sorry, i just assumed you were an atheist. still, that changes very little in my argument.

you are not an atheist who believes religious people are ignorant and brainwashed, even those that realize the bible is a collection of fairy tales, you are one of those brain-washed people. you are no longer insulting the christians(better said the spiritual peop 't true of course, but atheist can be replaced with religious zealot and is the same thing)

In an effort to respond to your 4 points:

1) You are a christian (you say) - see if you can figure out the answer to your question!

2) Where exactly in the Bible did God say "Divorce is cool" please?
God tested Abraham - so?? - is that your basis for accussing your God who died for you of lying??

3) Frankly I couldn't care less what you think about me being an athiest many years ago, as:
a) that was my business not yours,
b) it's a free country, and
c) Jesus has forgiven me for denying him.

4) God says he created the earth in 6 days and I choose to believe him instead of a bunch of athiests and scientists, irrespective of any apparent "evidence" to the contrary. It's called trust my friend, and I choose to trust God over man anyday.

Regards and god bless you.

DG.

Originally posted by KellyJay
LOL, really he sees things wrongly! Wow, glad you are here to tell every
one how to see things correctly.
Kelly

Point: KJ.

Originally posted by Penguin
I mentioned a while ago that I had met a Young Earth Creationist, I may have mentioned working with him since.

Well the last time, he gave me a number of CDs of YEC material (by the like of Ken Hovind), in the folorn hope that I would lose all reason and become a YEC, and I gave him The Language Of God, in the folorn hope that he would gain just a little ...[text shortened]... to get into to deep and heated a discussion, but it's going to be difficult.

--- Penguin.

The customer IS always right. 🙂

Originally posted by divegeester
In an effort to respond to your 4 points:

1) You are a christian (you say) - see if you can figure out the answer to your question!

2) Where exactly in the Bible did God say "Divorce is cool" please?
God tested Abraham - so?? - is that your basis for accussing your God who died for you of lying??

3) Frankly I couldn't care less what yo ...[text shortened]... y friend, and I choose to trust God over man anyday.

Regards and god bless you.

DG.

if god would tell you pigs can fly, would you believe him? what if he is testing you to see if you would eat up anything, if you will use the gifts he gave you? are you not allowed to ask "god, pigs do not fly: i have never seen one. why would you say such a thing?"

maybe the above example doesn't satisfy you. we never seen pigs fly, but maybe sometimes when we are not watching they hover a little as a private joke to them. but i guess you get my drift. if god says something we KNOW for a fact it is a lie, are we not allowed to point it out, even to god.

the above being said, i have one more flaw in your judgment to point out. how do you know what is in the bible has been said by god. god doesn't even have to be a liar, the people who wrote the bible and told you it was god's word are enough to be liars. we cannot verify if they spoke true or not, and in some cases we must have faith. but when we know for a fact a thing is untrue, it is necessary we point it out. after all, god is in the business of truth.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
[b]sorry, i just assumed you were an atheist. still, that changes very little in my argument.

you are not an atheist who believes religious people are ignorant and brainwashed, even those that realize the bible is a collection of fairy tales, you are one of those brain-washed people. you are no longer insulting the christians(better said the spiritual people) you have become the fuel for their insults.

Fairy tales? Do you not know that the Bible is the basis for the scientific discipline of Biblical archaeology? Your disregard for its proven truths is a disgrace. What other religious document has a scientific discipline based upon it?

Originally posted by whodey
Fairy tales? Do you not know that the Bible is the basis for the scientific discipline of Biblical archaeology? Your disregard for its proven truths is a disgrace. What other religious document has a scientific discipline based upon it?

well i would ask what other religion has rich fanatics giving money to support "biblical archeology"?

there is no biblical archeology as a distinct scientific discipline. there is only archeology as a discipline, which happens to have one particular branch which occupies itself with biblical references.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
if god would tell you pigs can fly, would you believe him? what if he is testing you to see if you would eat up anything, if you will use the gifts he gave you? are you not allowed to ask "god, pigs do not fly: i have never seen one. why would you say such a thing?"

maybe the above example doesn't satisfy you. we never seen pigs fly, but maybe sometimes ing is untrue, it is necessary we point it out. after all, god is in the business of truth.

The last time I saw a flying pig it was on the front cover of an album called Animals by the name-sake band of a rhp poster in this thread - LOL!

My issue with you Z is not the old chestnut of creation vs. evolution, it's not even that of god's truth or any of the other spurious points you raised. It's about what Jesus said to Thomas in John 20 especially verse 29.

You claim to be a Christian in an early post in this thread, you claim belief in Christ and that he died for your sins. You then blather on about him being a fairy tale character, god being a liar and trickster, that creation is a hoax and that I'm insulting all Christains, Muslins and Hindus all around the world by believing that the Bible is in it's entirety the whole and accurate word of God.

I will insult you if you like?? You either believe in Jesus or you don't?? I think you are a compromiser and a fence-sitter who wanted at sometime to have the courage to believe in the Lord Jesus but who fears the reproach of the intelectual scientist community and who now uses that viewpoint to berrate peopel like myself who at least have the courage to post and stand by what they believe.

Edit: I do not mean you any offence - I just don't understand your bipolar viewpoint.

Originally posted by divegeester
The last time I saw a flying pig it was on the front cover of an album called Animals by the name-sake band of a rhp poster in this thread - LOL!

My issue with you Z is not the old chestnut of creation vs. evolution, it's not even that of god's truth or any of the other spurious points you raised. It's about what Jesus said to Thomas in John 20 espec ...[text shortened]...

Edit: I do not mean you any offence - I just don't understand your bipolar viewpoint.

sure, i understand your point also. the point of the religious fanatic that thinks any thought is a sin against god, that god works in mysterious ways and we cannot ever hope to understand him, that we must obey him without question.

i believe in jesus. why does that require me to believe in the creation story also? why does that forbid me to say that the old testament is full of genocide and hate? again i ask: who told you the bible is in its entirety the word of god? who told you god apporves of everything in it? it is obvious he doesn't. in the old testament he says eye for an eye and then jesus says turn the other cheek. in the old testament the infidels are to be murdered or cast out and in the new testament the infidels are to be converted gently, to be shown by example the awesomeness of jesus. how then can we still hold the bible to be absolutely true.

i understand you i really do. you were told by the people who wrote the bible what to think. you were told that any thought which contradicts that is a sin, that god doesn't want doubt but unquestionable faith. what you forgot to ask is who gave those people the right to teach you about god. who gave the translators of the bible the right to translate it and who assures you that they are not mistaken. you forgot to ask the catholics why so many scriptures were not included in the bible and why some were branded even heresy.

but you dont question, do you? it is not what your christianity is about.

oh well, since i believe that jesus will not judge good muslims or jews or even atheists, why should he judge people who discard god's gift (reason) and accept what others tell them, others who may or may not be men of God.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
sure, i understand your point also. the point of the religious fanatic that thinks any thought is a sin against god, that god works in mysterious ways and we cannot ever hope to understand him, that we must obey him without question.

i believe in jesus. why does that require me to believe in the creation story also? why does that forbid me to say that th ...[text shortened]... od's gift (reason) and accept what others tell them, others who may or may not be men of God.

if i may interpose, simply because the Christ upheld the creation account, did he not?

And Pharisees came up to him, intent on tempting him and saying, 'Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of ground?', In reply he said: 'Did you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female'. Matthew 19 verse 3.

what is Christ saying other than that he believed, upheld and taught the biblical creation account found in the narrative at genesis. where else would the pharisees have read it? new scientist magazine? therefore i would assert that if you claim to be a christian then surely one is under duress to ascertain what Christ actually taught and adhere to it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
if i may interpose, simply because the Christ upheld the creation account, did he not?

And Pharisees came up to him, intent on tempting him and saying, 'Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of ground?', In reply he said: 'Did you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female'. Matthew 19 verse ...[text shortened]... n then surely one is under duress to ascertain what Christ actually taught and adhere to it.

yeah, he used the text most precious to the children that were the pharisees and told them to be true to that if not their hearts.

also, jesus doesnt make science and a thing you should have thought about it. neither does the bible. its meaning is moral, its delivering a message of love. the fact that it is misinterpreted, that the genocides ordered by men and justified as god's will got in there is entirely man's fault.

have anything else?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
yeah, he used the text most precious to the children that were the pharisees and told them to be true to that if not their hearts.

also, jesus doesnt make science and a thing you should have thought about it. neither does the bible. its meaning is moral, its delivering a message of love. the fact that it is misinterpreted, that the genocides ordered by men and justified as god's will got in there is entirely man's fault.

have anything else?

its meaning is moral? tell me what is there to interpret? yes the question was one of morality but the answer was crystal clear, Christ believed in and taught others that the origin of humanity was a direct act of creation, i do not see how the text can be interpreted any other way, other than by those who wish to discredit the account because of their personal position.

did you not read? read what? the genesis account of morality? no the creation account! read what? that God used the evolutionary process to establish life? no that God created! its undeniable.

as for your other references if you could post the actual text it would help because i cannot place them myself.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its meaning is moral? tell me what is there to interpret? yes the question was one of morality but the answer was crystal clear, Christ believed in and taught others that the origin of humanity was a direct act of creation, i do not see how the text can be interpreted any other way, other than by those who wish to discredit the account because of t ...[text shortened]... r references if you could post the actual text it would help because i cannot place them myself.

Jericho and in fact the whole "moving to the promised land". whenever the jews went to war they were instructed to leave nobody alive. to suffer not a idol worshiper. now comes the question. inspired by god or inspired by their leaders?

inspired by the same god who sent his only son on earth so that he may die for our sins, a grand act of selflessness and compassion and sacrifice? by the same god who's son asked us to turn the other cheek and love our enemies?

or was it in fact inspired by the leaders of the jews who sought to justify their wars. the persian empire assimilated the cultures they conquered, granted freedom of religion. whenever the jews did that, god would smite them, the same god described in my previous paragraph.

what is more likely?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its meaning is moral? tell me what is there to interpret? yes the question was one of morality but the answer was crystal clear, Christ believed in and taught others that the origin of humanity was a direct act of creation, i do not see how the text can be interpreted any other way, other than by those who wish to discredit the account because of t ...[text shortened]... r references if you could post the actual text it would help because i cannot place them myself.

what part of "awesome son of god - stupid brainwashed pharisee children who's whole life revolves around the scriptures they studied" don't you understand?

i don't know about you but if i had a stupid child who will not understand what i am telling him, and the only way i could get him to behave was "behave or santa and the easter bunny will not like you", i would use the tools given to me.

also do bear in mind that jesus had a limited time in which to convey his message. what do you think is more important to him? explaining evolution and astrophysics to a bunch of ignorant savages, things he though will be discovered on its own later on, or to share the message of love, compassion and all things fluffy before being crucified by the same savages he was trying to save?