You must be born again

Originally posted by David C
Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]Jeez. Did you read the next sentence in the article?

Augustine denied the antipodes, not the round Earth.

Jeez? OK. uh-huh.

[quote]They fail to notice that, even should it be believed or demonstrated that the world is round or spherical in form, it does not follow that the part of the ...[text shortened]... ..who was the mathemetician the RCC wanted excommunicated and/or burned at the stake for heresy?[/b]

So, Augustine knew of the theory of a spherical earth, but dismissed the notion. Yes?

Yes.

Refresh my memory...who was the mathemetician the RCC wanted excommunicated and/or burned at the stake for heresy?

Bruno.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]But nonetheless I, like billions of people, were sold the "lie" of Columbus throughout our primary education

Have you never heard of Magellan?

No, seriously - where did you do your schooling? Where I come from, virtually every student has studied the Ptolemaic model in school (it's a completely different matter that most will forget). ...[text shortened]...
People in the so-called "Dark Ages" were smarter than your education has led you to believe.[/b]

Have you never heard of Magellan?

Yeah didn’t he play for the Canucks? Of course I have heard of Magellan. Do I know what he did specifically? No. Do I care? No. Do you care? Sure because you are still avoiding the obvious point I have been making. To appease you, here is the cut and paste of Magellan from Wikipedia, knock yourself out:

Ferdinand Magellan, Explorer
· Born: c. 1480
· Birthplace: Villa Real, Portugal
· Died: 27 April 1521 (Killed in battle)
· Best Known As: The first guy to circumnavigate the Earth
Portuguese name: Fernao de Magalhaes
Magellan was born in Portugal, but it was under the Spanish flag that he sailed in 1519 with the intention of reaching the Spice Islands by sailing west around South America. After much hardship he succeeded in reaching and then sailing across the Pacific Ocean. Soon thereafter he was killed while trying to subdue the natives on what is now the island of Mactan in the Philippines. After still more hardships, one of his original five ships, Victoria, eventually made it back to Spain. Though Magellan didn't complete the entire circumnavigation, as the expedition's leader he is usually credited with being the first man to circle the globe.

Okay I used the wrong explorer to prove the point I was making. What a loser I am.

No, seriously - where did you do your schooling? Where I come from, virtually every student has studied the Ptolemaic model in school (it's a completely different matter that most will forget).

I either didn’t study it or I feel asleep that day. Or like you implied, I forgot it. Moving on.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

Are you trying to say, "People back in the 4th century were idiots who believed the Earth was flat and conceived of God and the Bible as explanations for natural phenomena"?

No I have never implied they were “idiots” for believing what they believed as I imagine most of us in the same situation might come to the same conclusion. What I am implying is that there is no conclusive proof that the authors and translators of the Bible did not either accurately depict, transcribe, or manipulate whatever was written. There is no conclusive proof that someone or the group of authors of the Bible simply did not “make it up”. My point about the Earth being flat is that (and please spare me my inaccuracies of who proved me wrong and at one time in history) it is possible that either miscommunication and or misinterpretation have occurred. With that being “possible” that means ANYTHING is possible. Buddha, Thor, Krishna, or no God, etc.

But again who am I to question the Bible, right?

People in the so-called "Dark Ages" were smarter than your education has led you to believe.

I never said they were dumb to begin with but they had limited knowledge and experience to explain natural phenomenon in their world. It could be argued that if they have had the technological benefits of our society today it might have help them better understand occurrences instead of chalking it up to superstition, such as the myth of a vengeful God.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]So, Augustine knew of the theory of a spherical earth, but dismissed the notion. Yes?

Yes.

Refresh my memory...who was the mathemetician the RCC wanted excommunicated and/or burned at the stake for heresy?

Bruno.[/b]

Very slowly, then. Let's try this again, follow along:

Me: The church was denying the round earth beyond Pliny and Ptolemy.
You: No.
Me: Augustine dismissed the round earth notion.
You: Yes.

Are you even pretending to make sense at this point?

As for Bruno, was he any relation to Galileo? You know, the guy who was tortured by the church for his writings on Copernicus.

Originally posted by David C
Very slowly, then. Let's try this again, follow along:

Me: The church was denying the round earth beyond Pliny and Ptolemy.
You: No.
Me: Augustine dismissed the round earth notion.
You: Yes.

Are you even pretending to make sense at this point?

As for Bruno, was he any relation to Galileo? You know, the guy who was tortured by the church for his writings on Copernicus.

This afternoon has been like a "40 Popular Myths about the Catholic Church" session!

Are you even pretending to make sense at this point?

For one thing, whether the Earth is flat or round is a matter of cosmology (like the geocentric theory) and the Church does not have a teaching about it.

If you're interested in articles that give both sides of the debate, then see:

http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/creation_flatearth.php

As for Bruno, was he any relation to Galileo? You know, the guy who was tortured by the church for his writings on Copernicus.

Was Galileo tortured? Where's your evidence?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Was Galileo tortured? Where's your evidence?

Forcing him to recant amounts to torture. Especially given the church's loving treatment of Bruno and de Molay.

Originally posted by David C
Forcing him to recant amounts to torture. Especially given the church's loving treatment of Bruno and de Molay.

Forcing him to recant amounts to torture.

How's that?

EDIT: Bruno was a heretic. I disagree with the punishment meted out to him, but he was guilty of the charges against him.

De Molai was caught in the cross-fire between the King of France and the Church.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
How's that?

Forcing a frail old man through a theatrical farce of a trial, while constantly reminding him of the fate that awaits him if he doesn't capitulate to their demands to recant (what has since been proven)...whatever, LH. You're right. He should have thanked them, really. Is that about it?

Originally posted by David C
Forcing a frail old man through a theatrical farce of a trial, while constantly reminding him of the fate that awaits him if he doesn't capitulate to their demands to recant (what has since been proven)...whatever, LH. You're right. He should have thanked them, really. Is that about it?

Which trial are you talking about? 1616 or 1633?

EDIT: That he proved to be subsequently right is misleading - if he could not prove his theory scientifically, why did he insist the whole world (hyperbolically speaking, of course!) accept it as truth? Do you accept dj2's creationism?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Which trial are you talking about? 1616 or 1633?

EDIT: That he proved to be subsequently right is misleading - if he could not prove his theory scientifically, why did he insist the whole world (hyperbolically speaking, of course!) accept it as truth? Do you accept dj2's creationism?

You know, you got punked in a debate over Galileo in another thread several months ago. I won't go 'round the Maypole with you on this...as for dj2, both he and you are entitled to whatever spurious beliefs you wish to hold. Doesn't matter to you, I suppose, that the result of those beliefs has stifled scientific advancements or degraded the human spirit since, well....Galileo.

Originally posted by David C
You know, you got punked in a debate over Galileo in another thread several months ago. I won't go 'round the Maypole with you on this...as for dj2, both he and you are entitled to whatever spurious beliefs you wish to hold. Doesn't matter to you, I suppose, that the result of those beliefs has stifled scientific advancements or degraded the human spirit since, well....Galileo.

You seem to have a selective grasp of history, Dave. I can string out a long list of scientists for you who were even founders of their fields, who were religious. Saying religion stifles science is like saying science stifles technology.

You have spurious beliefs about religion.

Originally posted by Halitose
You seem to have a selective grasp of history, Dave. I can string out a long list of scientists for you who were even founders of their fields, who were religious. Saying religion stifles science is like saying science stifles technology.

You have spurious beliefs about religion.

I can string out a long list of scientists for you who were even founders of their fields, who were religious.

So very, very Not Relevant. It's not the 'religious' scientists who threatened to burn Galileo at the stake.

Saying religion stifles science is like saying science stifles technology.

Maybe in your world. I live on Earth, however.

You have spurious beliefs about religion.

Point conceded. I'd go as far as to say some of my ideas about religion are 'wacky', even. Doesn't change the fact that religion feeds off the supression of the individual mind.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]Forcing him to recant amounts to torture.

How's that?

EDIT: Bruno was a heretic. I disagree with the punishment meted out to him, but he was guilty of the charges against him.

De Molai was caught in the cross-fire between the King of France and the Church.[/b]

Being called a heretic by the RCC, is a great honor.
That church has only proved man can only kill the body, it's religion that kills the soul.
The RCC died in 325 a.d. when it killed it's soul.
"Let the dead bury the dead....." the rest is history.

Originally posted by lucifershammer

Refresh my memory...who was the mathemetician the RCC wanted excommunicated and/or burned at the stake for heresy?

Bruno.[/b]

I was wondering what had happened to Frank Bruno. I knew I hadn't seen him on TV lately

Originally posted by lucifershammer
This afternoon has been like a "40 Popular Myths about the Catholic Church" session!

[b]Are you even pretending to make sense at this point?

For one thing, whether the Earth is flat or round is a matter of cosmology (like the geocentric theory) and the Church does not have a teaching about it.

If you're interested in articles that give ...[text shortened]... the church for his writings on Copernicus.[/b]

Was Galileo tortured? Where's your evidence?[/b]

Cut n paste; Pope Urban VIII invited Galileo to papal audiences on six occasions and led Galileo to believe that the Catholic Church would not make an issue of the Copernican theory. Galileo, therefore, decided to publish his views believing that he could do so without serious consequences from the Church. However by this stage in his life Galileo's health was poor with frequent bouts of severe illness and so even though he began to write his famous Dialogue in 1624 it took him six years to complete the work.

Galileo attempted to obtain permission from Rome to publish the Dialogue in 1630 but this did not prove easy. Eventually he received permission from Florence, and not Rome. In February 1632 Galileo published Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief Systems of the World - Ptolemaic and Copernican. It takes the form of a dialogue between Salviati, who argues for the Copernican system, and Simplicio who is an Aristotelian philosopher. The climax of the book is an argument by Salviati that the Earth moves which was based on Galileo's theory of the tides. Galileo's theory of the tides was entirely false despite being postulated after Kepler had already put forward the correct explanation. It was unfortunate, given the remarkable truths the Dialogue supported, that the argument which Galileo thought to give the strongest proof of Copernicus's theory should be incorrect.

Shortly after publication of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief Systems of the World - Ptolemaic and Copernican the Inquisition banned its sale and ordered Galileo to appear in Rome before them. Illness prevented him from travelling to Rome until 1633. Galileo's accusation at the trial which followed was that he had breached the conditions laid down by the Inquisition in 1616. However a different version of this decision was produced at the trial rather than the one Galileo had been given at the time. The truth of the Copernican theory was not an issue therefore; it was taken as a fact at the trial that this theory was false. This was logical, of course, since the judgement of 1616 had declared it totally false.

Found guilty, Galileo was condemned to lifelong imprisonment.....


......It was a sad end for so great a man to die condemned of heresy. His will indicated that he wished to be buried beside his father in the family tomb in the Basilica of Santa Croce but his relatives feared, quite rightly, that this would provoke opposition from the Church. His body was concealed and only placed in a fine tomb in the church in 1737 by the civil authorities against the wishes of many in the Church. On 31 October 1992, 350 years after Galileo's death, Pope John Paul II gave an address on behalf of the Catholic Church in which he admitted that errors had been made by the theological advisors in the case of Galileo. He declared the Galileo case closed, but he did not admit that the Church was wrong to convict Galileo on a charge of heresy because of his belief that the Earth rotates round the sun

Originally posted by Halitose
You seem to have a selective grasp of history, Dave. I can string out a long list of scientists for you who were even founders of their fields, who were religious. Saying religion stifles science is like saying science stifles technology.

You have spurious beliefs about religion.

Hurrah, Halitose in 'Scientists aren't all Godless sinners out to destroy biblical authority' SHOCK.

Could you mention this to dj2b who seems to think science is his Aunty Crust