You Think You Are Eternally Saved? Really? Read This !

Originally posted by Rajk999
You have totally missed the point KJ. Many here believe in eternal salvation ie born again Christians if they sin will still get salvation.

Im not discussing anything about earning salvation. Im ignoring anything that is off topic.

Do you have anything to say about what the Apostle Peter said in the opening post in relation to the claim that a born again Christian cannot lose his salvation.

Is Peter saying that he can, or not?

I believe if we confess our sins to him He is faithful to forgive us, but saying
that I am not saying you can lead a life of sin and find yourself where you
want to be in the end. We need to be drawing close to God least we fall,
if there wasn't any danger of that would not be any warnings about it.
Kelly

1 Corinthians 10: 6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” 8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. 12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Originally posted by RJHinds
No person has any idea of what they are talking about, if they do not agree with the Watchtower, do they? You also see no point in discussing any scripture that disagrees with the Watchtower interpretation. How nice.

The Instructor

yawn, nothing here to see but tumble weed blowing between your ears in the desert region of your mind, who knows maybe one day you will actually address the content of a post instead of trying to fob us off with your meaningless opinions.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you are simply another person that values his own opinions over what is actually written in the word of God, Christ did not use that parable to talk of temporal or permanent punishment but forgiveness in relation to Gods forgiveness, you simply make it up, all you have proven is that you are willing to simply believe your own propaganda and attempt to superimpose it on the word of God, you are full of it in fact.

you are simply another person that values his own opinions over what is actually written in the word of God, Christ did not use that parable to talk of temporal or permanent punishment but forgiveness in relation to Gods forgiveness, you simply make it up, all you have proven is that you are willing to simply believe your own propaganda and attempt to superimpose it on the word of God, you are full of it in fact.

These rhetorical generalizations do not prove your case. Only by specific pointing out a better way of understanding the Matthew 18:21-25 and Luke 12:35-48 can your charge be established.

If you're are not up to the job of dealing with the specifics why should I accept your generalized rhetorical accusations ?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
not it was not, he failed to make a single valid point with regard to the content of my post and the accuracy of the translation that he used to attempt to establish his point and like all evangelicals that i have ever met, proffered his opinion as some kind of truth and simply tried to cover over the fact by producing a plethora of other verses as some type of subterfuge, entirely predictable and quite banal.

not it was not, he failed to make a single valid point with regard to the content of my post and the accuracy of the translation that he used to attempt to establish his point and like all evangelicals that i have ever met, proffered his opinion as some kind of truth and simply tried to cover over the fact by producing a plethora of other verses as some type of subterfuge, entirely predictable and quite banal.

Elegantly put and full of customary Watchtower vehemence towards Christians of the household of faith and wrong.

I did not read whatever post of yours that was being responded to. I simply read the short points made, and they were well put. I have debated checkbaiter more than once. When I see something I think was well put, I don't mind encouraging that.

Let me translate .. If after you accept Christ you drawback, God will have no peasure in you: Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. It is better if you did not even know about Christ. Apparently the punishment those who drawback is more severe than those who dont know Christ in the first place.

So Rajk999 thinks that the result of God not having pleasure in a someone could only result in eternal perdition.

Here is someone who is saved yet loses reward before Christ's examination of his Christian service -

"If anyone's work which he has built upon [the foundation] remains, he will receive a reward;

If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

This SAVED person, in terms of REWARD, will not be pleasing to the Lord. we could definitely say that God in THIS regard could say - " my soul shall have no pleasure in him".

Does he lose his eternal life ? He loses his reward. He himself is SAVED - "yet so as through fire" .

Reward is a matter of relative rank, relative position in the coming kingdom of God in the millennial age.

Rajk999 cannot distinguish between the GIFT and the REWARD.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God
NKJV

another very poor translation, it gives no indication of the nature of the Greek verb. Once again there is no indication in the text that the writer makes the distinction between sinning in spirit or in the ...[text shortened]... upon coming to a knowledge of the Christ, trample upon his sacrifice by wilfully practising sin.

Robbie, I had to step back and consider what kind of life it would be if one day I am saved and the next day I am not. There is no joy, no confidence in the Lord, it is a gloomy, morbid existence.
I would not last very long before I was back to my old self. I would not be wasting my time on this forum, I would bot living it up, partying, etc.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] you are simply another person that values his own opinions over what is actually written in the word of God, Christ did not use that parable to talk of temporal or permanent punishment but forgiveness in relation to Gods forgiveness, you simply make it up, all you have proven is that you are willing to simply believe your own propaganda and attempt t ...[text shortened]... ob of dealing with the specifics why should I accept your generalized rhetorical accusations ?

because you have provide no specifics except shameless impositions upon the word of God, you think that you can simply impose anything you want onto the text, twisting it to your opinions, shameless self propaganda.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] not it was not, he failed to make a single valid point with regard to the content of my post and the accuracy of the translation that he used to attempt to establish his point and like all evangelicals that i have ever met, proffered his opinion as some kind of truth and simply tried to cover over the fact by producing a plethora of other verses as s ...[text shortened]... aiter more than once. When I see something I think was well put, I don't mind encouraging that.

I have not mentioned the watchtower, it seems that in the absence of anything remotely resembling reason, its the only target you can think of to attack, predictable and banal.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Robbie, I had to step back and consider what kind of life it would be if one day I am saved and the next day I am not. There is no joy, no confidence in the Lord, it is a gloomy, morbid existence.
I would not last very long before I was back to my old self. I would not be wasting my time on this forum, I would bot living it up, partying, etc.

its not about you, Christianity was never concerned with self, it was always concerned with others, Christ was self sacrificing, why, so that others could benefit, time and again Paul states that we lead ourselves as a living sacrifice, for the benefit of others and while I admire your stance and that obviously Christian principles has transformed your life as they should, to simply ignore the elements of my text and to brush them off as an attempted excuse was hard to respect.

If you are already saved as you claim, why did Paul mention that one needs to put up a hard fight for the faith, it makes no sense if you are already saved, indeed, he states that a man that is standing best beware that he does not fall, hard to accept if your salvation is already assured.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its not about you, Christianity was never concerned with self, it was always concerned with others, Christ was self sacrificing, why, so that others could benefit, time and again Paul states that we lead ourselves as a living sacrifice, for the benefit of others and while I admire your stance and that obviously Christian principles has transformed yo ...[text shortened]... standing best beware that he does not fall, hard to accept if your salvation is already assured.

When one is saved, he MUST renew his mind. Saved is just the beginning.
When a person is born again, the only thing that changes is his nature and standing with God.
If a person is stupid before he is saved, he will be stupid after he is saved.
If a person is depressed before he is saved he will still be depressed after he is saved.
That is, until that person begins to renew his mind and agree with what God says. Then slowly this knowledge is eaten and digested and starts to transform the mind, emotions, faith grows, etc.
We feed on milk, then meat as we grow older in Christ and start being a son of God with power to make a difference.
We are to be witnesses, heal the sick, etc., but this takes time as we grow in relationship with Jesus, learn to trust him more and more, and submit to following him.
What we are in discussion about is if a person after being born again/saved, fails to renew their mind. Then they are just like unbelievers, living with the fears and cares of the world. They are however, still saved.
God has made salvation easy. Praise God for that! Don't hinder the cause of God and put needless burdens on people. Instead encourage them to renew their minds, and escape the cares and fears and traps of this world.
Encourage people to rebuke sin and the devil and live for Jesus!

What Paul is doing is encouraging me to stand and fight the good fight, lest I fall and lose my rewards, and be a defeated Christian.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
When one is saved, he MUST renew his mind. Saved is just the beginning.
When a person is born again, the only thing that changes is his nature and standing with God.
If a person is stupid before he is saved, he will be stupid after he is saved.
If a person is depressed before he is saved he will still be depressed after he is saved.
That is, until t o stand and fight the good fight, lest I fall and lose my rewards, and be a defeated Christian.

he who endures to the end is the one that will be saved, these are the words of the Christ, if a person is saved, there is no need for him to endure anything, his salvation according to you is assured and the Christ's words make absolutely no sense in that context.

as for a transformation of the Christian, Paul states that its a complete metamorphosis, a putting on of a new personality, this has nothing to do with salvation at all, for a Christian can just as easily lose his Christian identity if he fails to live up to Christian standards. The idea that you are saved no matter what you do is an inducement to every type of licentiousness, there is not any sacrifice left for the wilful sinner, God is not one to be mocked.

I have not mentioned the watchtower, it seems that in the absence of anything remotely resembling reason, its the only target you can think of to attack, predictable and banal.

What do I care if you have or have not mentioned your Watchtower ?

I suggest you go into detail specifically and point out what is wrong with my exegesis of the two portions under discussion.

You attacked. You followed with some rhetorical flourish of elegance. Now you point out exactly where any verse I expounded was being misused.

And if you can't do that then don't expect me to be blown away by words like "banal" and "predictable."

Do your job or go pick on somebody you think you can handle, Watchtower student.

Originally posted by sonship

I have not mentioned the watchtower, it seems that in the absence of anything remotely resembling reason, its the only target you can think of to attack, predictable and banal.

What do I care if you have or have not mentioned your Watchtower ?

I suggest you go into detail specifically and point out what is wrong with my exegesis of le."

Do your job or go pick on somebody you think you can handle, Watchtower student.

I already pointed it out in the first instance, the passage in which you tired to impose your idea of temporal and eternal punishment upon a fictional parable which the Christ used to teach forgiveness and there you were with your shoehorn trying to shoehorn it in, I now hand you over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that it may bring you back to your sense for going beyond what is written!

One dos not handle a rattle snake, one hits it over the head with a spade!

I already pointed it out in the first instance, the passage in which you tired to impose your idea of temporal and eternal punishment upon a fictional parable which the Christ used to teach forgiveness and there you were with your shoehorn trying to shoehorn it in, I now hand you over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that it may bring you back to your sense for going beyond what is written!

The last time you waxed on grandiose apostolic authority in this way, it turned out to be a tongue in cheek jest. So I can only assume this time it is similar.

I don't recall you being very specific. But I will give you the benefit of a doubt and go back and see if anything besides elequantly stated generalizations were given.

If I go back and seemed to have missed something specific, I'll deal with it. If not I'll just have to take your "turn you over to Satan" statement to translate that can't or don't want to take the effort to point out to anyone exactly where I interpreted Matthew 18:21-35 or Luke 12:35-48 wrongly.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
because you have provide no specifics except shameless impositions upon the word of God, you think that you can simply impose anything you want onto the text, twisting it to your opinions, shameless self propaganda.

because you have provide no specifics except shameless impositions upon the word of God, you think that you can simply impose anything you want onto the text, twisting it to your opinions, shameless self propaganda.

No specifics supplied ?

What specifics did you not see ?

Do you disagree that the parable has the unforgiving servant punished "UNTIL" a certain terminating point ?

Do you disagree that the parable of the unforgiving servant pertains to Christ dealing with His servant following His second coming ?

Do you disagree that beaten with few lashes or beaten with many lashes pertains to Christ's dealing with His servants following His second coming ?

These are the salient points. If you have a problem with the three above interpretations then tell us WHY you have a problem.