You Think You Are Eternally Saved? Really? Read This !

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I already pointed it out in the first instance, the passage in which you tired to impose your idea of temporal and eternal punishment upon a fictional parable which the Christ used to teach forgiveness and there you were with your shoehorn trying to shoehorn it in, I now hand you over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that it may bring you ba ...[text shortened]... what is written!

One dos not handle a rattle snake, one hits it over the head with a spade!

I already pointed it out in the first instance, the passage in which you tired to impose your idea of temporal and eternal punishment upon a fictional parable

I went back over your posts to ME and saw nothing specific except the charge of munipulation and shoehorning.

So I think you are mistaking yourself for the person you want to be. The charge I see. The specifics I do not see.

I told you that parables of Christ are usually matched by plain teaching elsewhere.

Now if you want to challenge me and say point out the plain teaching that confirms the treatment I gave to the parables, then we can proceed to examine non-parabolic teaching that says the same thing.

That is the way I would go if I had doubts about the veracity of the exegesis.

By the way. There is no law saying that one may not be disciplined by the Lord BEFORE His second coming. And there is no reasoning that one may not settle matters with the Lord Jesus BEFORE His second coming, based upon either of the passages.

I cannot make your case for you. And I offer you no more assistance. Real problems I am willing to examine if you have any.

(For the sake of others reading along)

Originally posted by sonship

I already pointed it out in the first instance, the passage in which you tired to impose your idea of temporal and eternal punishment upon a fictional parable

I went back over your posts to ME and saw nothing specific except the charge of munipulation and shoehorning.

So I think you are mistaking yourself for the person you want to b ...[text shortened]... al problems I am willing to examine if you have any.

(For the sake of others reading along)

the parables of Christ are shoehorned into what you want them to mean, in this case something completely unrelated as temporal and eternal punishment, and without foundation and support from the text that you quoted.

What was the parable about, forgiveness in relation to Gods forgiveness and in order for you to derive anything about temporal or eternal punishment from it, you need to twist the logic, misconstrue the intent and basically impose your own onto the text where none exists in the original. If you want to claim that your thoughts are supported elsewhere then fine, but to claim that they find support from the parable that you cited is simply going beyond what is actually written.

Robbie,
This was not directed to me, but I reply anyway.

he who endures to the end is the one that will be saved, these are the words of the Christ, if a person is saved, there is no need for him to endure anything, his salvation according to you is assured and the Christ's words make absolutely no sense in that context.

That a saved Christian need not have endurance is totally ridiculous. But let's look at the passage briefly.

Matthew 24:13 - But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved.

Some Bible readers think every instance of the word "saved" can only refer to eternal redemption and eternal life.

Suppose I stated that only women who bring up children will have eternal life because only they are "saved" - ie.

" ... but the woman, having been quite deceived, has fallen into trangression. But she will be saved through her childbearing, ..." ( First Timothy 2:14,15a)

Taken wrongly someone might concoct a doctrine that mothers only among human women, "will be SAVED". This then would not be justification by faith but justification by motherhood. Single women can only look to being lost and unredeemed. After all, some heretic reasons, the woman will be "saved" only through childbearing.

Saved in this context should not mean eternal redemption and eternal life in First Timothy 2:15.

Does " ... he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved" give ground to a doctrine of "Justification by Endurance" ? That is one is eternally redeemed and granted eternal life only because one has endured through trials to the end ? No.

This saying that he who endures to the end will be saved is both in Matthew 24:13 and Matthew. 10:22.

"Saved" here may mean "saved" from those who hate the Christians -

"And brother will deliver up brother to death, and father his child; and children will rise up against their parents and put them to death. And you will be hated by all because of My name. But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved." (10:21,22)

The disciples are sent as sheep to wolves (v.16)
They are to be delivered to sanhedrins and be scourged (v.17)
They were have to stand before threatening governors (v.18)
Relatives will betray them and deliver them up (v.21)

If the disciples endure through these various trials they will arrive eventually undestroyed by their enemies to participate in the millennial kingdom.

I would not take this as a being "saved" from their sins for eternal redemption because that salvation is secured through the blood of the new covenant -

"And He took a cup and gave thangs, and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you. For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matthew 26:28)

Eternal redemption is accomplished because of the atoning blood of Christ poured out for sinners on His cross. Jeremiah's prophecy about the new covenant included that God would by no means remember the sinner's sins anymore -

"But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares Jehovah ... ... ... for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (see v.34)

Man is eternally saved from eternal judgment because God will by no means remember his sins any more. They are judged in Christ on His cross, washed away in His blood of the new covenant. And this has nothing to do with endurance but everything to do with believing and receiving Jesus Christ. As Peter preached -

"Therefore let it be known to you, men, brothers, that through this One forgiveness of sins is announced to you; And from all the things from which you were not able to be justified by the law of Moses, in this One everyone who believes is justified." (Acts 13:38,39)

Justification, being saved for eternal life, through believing that is. Endurance is not the cause of this salvation.

The being "saved" through enduring to the end of tribulations in Matthew 24:13 is similar to chapter 10 verse 22.

It is saved through the persecutions and tribulations of verses 1 through 12.

The apostles served as examples. Though they passed through many trials they lived by one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit - "long-suffering" which is related to enduring.

"But the FRUIT of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, LONG-SUFFERING ... faithfulness ..." (See Galatians 5:22,23)

FIRST came the regeneration from the Holy Spirit.
Then came the outflow of the fruit of the Spirit, including endurance or long-suffering. It was not that because they endured they received the Holy Spirit. It is that the GIFT of the Holy Spirit was given because of forgiveness and subsequently they had reserves of long-suffering by which to endure.

Originally posted by sonship
Robbie,
This was not directed to me, but I reply anyway.

he who endures to the end is the one that will be saved, these are the words of the Christ, if a person is saved, there is no need for him to endure anything, his salvation according to you is assured and the Christ's words make absolutely no sense in that context.

That a s ...[text shortened]... ly they had reserves of long-suffering by which to endure.

Very good, I never gave thought to the passage of child bearing woman being saved...thank you..🙂

the parables of Christ are shoehorned into what you want them to mean, in this case something completely unrelated as temporal and eternal punishment, and without foundation and support from the text that you quoted.

Wrong.

I told you that parables can be confirmed by direct teaching. Now where is the direct teaching to back up the parable of the unforgiving servant ?

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy." (Matt. 5:7).

"For if you forgive men their offenses, your heavenly Father will forgive you also; But if you do not forgive men their offenses, neither will your Father forgive your offenses." (6:14,15)

"For with the judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you." (7:2)

"Be well disposed quickly toward your opponent at law, while you are with him on the way, lest the opponent deliver you to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.. Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out from there until you pay the last quadrans." (5:25,26)

All these more direct teachings confirm the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:21-35.

HOW do I know that the parable concerns the second coming of Christ ?

Well, no one is saying that the principles of forgiveness have to WAIT until that time to be exercised. Of course a Christian can apply the principles and act accordingly during any time BEFORE the second coming.

But when is the last possible time that the day of reckoning is to take place before Jesus for the disciple of Jesus ? It is at the judgment seat, the bema examination before which all Christians must come to decide what their position will be in the coming kingdom -

"For we [including the Apostle Paul] must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things [done] through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad." (2 Cor. 5:10)

Decision as to what reward of discipline is administered to the saved Christians (including the apostles too) will be rendered at Christ's second coming and before His judgment seat.

By the way, the judgment seat of Christ is also called the judgment seat of God -

"But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of GOD, as it is written, 'As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall openly confess to God.'

So then each one of us (including the Apostle Paul as one of US Christians) will give an account concerning himself to God. " (Romans 14:10-12)

Cont. below latter -

Originally posted by sonship

the parables of Christ are shoehorned into what you want them to mean, in this case something completely unrelated as temporal and eternal punishment, and without foundation and support from the text that you quoted.

Wrong.

I told you that parables can be confirmed by direct teaching. Now where is the direct teaching to back up the ...[text shortened]... ount concerning himself to God. " (Romans 14:10-12)

Cont. below latter -[/b]

your assertions are completely without foundation and you simply believe your own propaganda, nothing else here for me, I pointed out your iniquity but now I realise that its nothing for a trinitarian to impose whatever he wants onto the sacred text, regardless if its explicitly stated or not.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Do you claim to know who :

1. Is Born Again or
2. Born of God ?

If so please explain it to me.

How does someone know who is born of God or born again.

Is it ALL Christians
Is it some who have done certain things?

What exactly?

This post by you Rajk is the crux of the problem with the confusion of who and when one may get this salvation. You are right that only God and his son Jesus are in control of this wonderful gift.
But this being "born again" and then receiveing "salvation" is never once in the Bible ever said to apply to all humans who believe in Jesus and all that goes with that.
And never up until Jesus came to earth were these terms ever even mentioned, even though the gift of being resurrected was known by all for sometime the future.
And the thought of being resurrected to heaven was never mentioned or thought of by any before Jesus came to earth.
This was a completely new thought that was presented to man. The only thing they believed before was to be resurrected back here to earth one day in the future.

So who gets this special reward of eternal life or salvation by being born again? That is what is being missed here by most.

Originally posted by galveston75
This post by you Rajk is the crux of the problem with the confusion of who and when one may get this salvation. You are right that only God and his son Jesus are in control of this wonderful gift.
But this being "born again" and then receiveing "salvation" is never once in the Bible ever said to apply to all humans who believe in Jesus and all that goe ...[text shortened]... of eternal life or salvation by being born again? That is what is being missed here by most.

It was hidden before Christ, till He was revealed. I thought you studied
scripture and you don't see that in your reading? You don't see that the
words you must be born again as applying to everyone, you cannot even
see God's kingdom without being born again (John 3:1-3) in addition to
that you also must be born again to enter God's kingdom (John 3:5-6), but
those of us here that are just born of flesh will never grasp that for the
reasons given in scripture they cannot see it or enter into it while only
walking in the flesh.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
It was hidden before Christ, till He was revealed. I thought you studied
scripture and you don't see that in your reading? You don't see that the
words you must be born again as applying to everyone, you cannot even
see God's kingdom without being born again (John 3:1-3) in addition to
that you also must be born again to enter God's kingdom (John 3:5-6) ...[text shortened]... en in scripture they cannot see it or enter into it while only
walking in the flesh.
Kelly

Lets ask this....would you agree that the first ones who accepted Jesus and did all they could do as he asked and pretty much did that even with mistakes made, would have been the first that would be given that salvation by Jesus?

You fools the thief on the Cross asked.....And Jesus said this very day you will be with (Who?) me (Jesus) in paradise...........



Manny

Originally posted by menace71
You fools the thief on the Cross asked.....And Jesus said this very day you will be with (Who?) me (Jesus) in paradise...........



Manny

What or who are you responding to?

Originally posted by galveston75
What or who are you responding to?

If the Shoe fits G-Man them wear it


Manny

Originally posted by menace71
If the Shoe fits G-Man them wear it


Manny

Nope, way too small.....

Originally posted by galveston75
Nope, way too small.....

LOL 😉 is that what she says ? 🙂 LOL



Manny

Originally posted by menace71
LOL 😉 is that what she says ? 🙂 LOL



Manny

Not a good subject here I'd say...