Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
"God is a sadist and he knows it"--John Balance.

"God is a concept by which we measure our pain"--John Lennon.

Jehovah as megalomaniac sadist--William Blake's Nobodaddy, cutting wings off children.

(It's a viewpoint).

My point exactly. Since clearly you're good at your quotes, you may be able to help me with this one. Who said this:

Given what I know about human nature, it's only fair to conclude that God is a myth

I know I've read it somewhere, but I can't place it... Geee, that's annoying.

Originally posted by stocken
Given what I know about human nature, it's only fair to conclude that God is a myth

I really don't know, but I'll trade you one for that:

God is not a mere concept projected into reality; God is a reality inadequately reflected (re-created) in our concepts. We don’t create God; we re-create God in our concepts of God. Indeed, we re-create God in our own image and likeness. (paraphrase of Kierkegaard)

Originally posted by David C
http://www.avesta.org/kanga/ka_english_opf_files/slideshow.htm

Thanks for reminding me that Zoroastrianism is still a living religion. I've always admired their practice (perhaps now defunct) of leaving their corpses atop lofty biers for the benefit of carrion birds. "Say hello to the vultures / for they are your future" (John Balance).

From the cursory glance I took, it looks like a set of principles & practices rather than the unique compendium of myth, history & scripture that makes up the Bible.

Originally posted by stocken

Yes, this is interesting. How diverse the estimates are. There are (according to the source you gave) estimates between 10000 and 1000 BC. That's a wide range.

But the scholarly estimates are closer to 1000 BC. The much older estimates appear to come from non-scholars.

Still, what do you think about his message? That we are co-workers of God rather than obidient slaves or children? To me, it represents a very positive line of thought, which could be used to improve any life... That we have to take responsibility for our own actions; think hard and feel our way to what is good and right before making choices. It's much harder to harm other people if we realize that noone will be there to say: "You are forgiven" when we screw up. We really must take careful consideration before we do anything in life.

Neither the "obedient slaves" nor "children" view of Man relative to God absolves us of responsibility for our own actions. In the first case, right action leads to reward while wrong action leads to punishment. In the second case, right action leads to us being united with God while wrong action leads to us being separated from God.

I don't know how the idea of there being no One to forgive us helps us avoid harm to others. If there is no One to forgive us, then there is no One to punish us either (unless the Zoroastrian God only punishes but does not forgive - which makes him look worse than the OT God) - so there is no particular incentive to avoid harming others.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Judaism had been monotheistic for several centuries by then.

I'm pretty sure you'll trouble finding the exact date the Jews went monotheistic.

Some credit Akhenaton as the inventor of monotheism:
http://www.crystalinks.com/akhenaten.html

Personally I think monotheism developed spontaneously in various geographical reasons.

(And now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to be sick).

Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]Yes, this is interesting. How diverse the estimates are. There are (according to the source you gave) estimates between 10000 and 1000 BC. That's a wide range.

But the scholarly estimates are closer to 1000 BC. The much older estimates appear to come from non-scholars.

Still, what do you think about his message? That we are co-workers ...[text shortened]... m look worse than the OT God) - so there is no particular incentive to avoid harming others.[/b]

Scholars seem to agree that it's somewhere before 1000BC (1300-1200 BC). When exactly did judaism turn monotheistic, again? This matter is very much in dispute even among scholars if I'm not mistaken. It's only fair to say that I could be wrong, so I admit: I could be wrong - Zarathustra may have been alive after judaism turned monotheistic.

[edit: and also Bosse may be right I guess...]

As for the forgiveness part. I think, it kinda depends on your point of view. Let's say I believe it's wrong to humiliate someone for no other purpose than my own entertainment (an arbitrary example). Let's now assume that I come in conflict with someone whom I really don't like (for whatever reason). Now. If I get a bad conscience for an act I've commited, I can just ask a priest or God directly to forgive me. If I know this (and that I'll always be forgiven in the end) then I might just take my chances and humiliate this person when I see the opportunity to do so. However, if there's no one but myself to blame (and of course others wouldn't hesitate to point out my hypocracy should I do that) I'd have to think twice before making that decision (which I probably won't then).

Of course my whole line of thought is built on the assumption that we all have some moral standards that we adhere to.

[Edit: I hate it when everything goes bold on me. You'd think the programmers would have done something about that... ]

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I'm pretty sure you'll trouble finding the exact date the Jews went monotheistic.

Some credit Akhenaton as the inventor of monotheism:
http://www.crystalinks.com/akhenaten.html

Personally I think monotheism developed spontaneously in various geographical reasons.

(And now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to be sick).

Actually, there is a school of anthropological thought that holds that primitive man was originally monotheistic, with polytheism evolving later:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Schmidt

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I don't know how the idea of there being no One to forgive us helps us avoid harm to others. If there is no One to forgive us, then there is no One to punish us either (unless the Zoroastrian God only punishes but does not forgive - which makes him look worse than the OT God) - so there is no particular incentive to avoid harming others.

So, you feel the Golden Rule can only apply if it carries a penalty for non-compliance. Pretty bleak outlook on life, I must say. I happen to think the Golden Rule is simply a condition of our consciousness and our innate ability to empathize.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I'm pretty sure you'll trouble finding the exact date the Jews went monotheistic.

Some credit Akhenaton as the inventor of monotheism:
http://www.crystalinks.com/akhenaten.html

Some consider it goes beyond that, Bosse...that Akenhaten actually WAS the biblical figure of Moses:

http://www.ahmedosman.co.uk/home.html

Originally posted by David C
So, you feel the Golden Rule can only apply if it carries a penalty for non-compliance. Pretty bleak outlook on life, I must say. I happen to think the Golden Rule is simply a condition of our consciousness and our innate ability to empathize.

...and our innate ability to empathize.

Would you consider this a weakness?

Originally posted by David C
So, you feel the Golden Rule can only apply if it carries a penalty for non-compliance. Pretty bleak outlook on life, I must say. I happen to think the Golden Rule is simply a condition of our consciousness and our innate ability to empathize.

So what if we have an innate ability to empathise? We still know the difference between something that's happening to us and something that's happening to someone else. It's not like all of humanity shares a single conscious Mind.

If empathy and reason were sufficient to ensure moral behaviour then the only criminals we'd have would either be insensitive or irrational.

Originally posted by stocken
Scholars seem to agree that it's somewhere before 1000BC (1300-1200 BC). When exactly did judaism turn monotheistic, again? This matter is very much in dispute even among scholars if I'm not mistaken. It's only fair to say that I could be wrong, so I admit: I could be wrong - Zarathustra may have been alive after judaism turned monotheistic.

[ed ...[text shortened]... erything goes bold on me. You'd think the programmers would have done something about that... ]

We've all done something or the other that is wrong. If all our wrongs will never be forgiven, then what's the point in doing good in the future?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
So what if we have an innate ability to empathise? We still know the difference between something that's happening to us and something that's happening to someone else. It's not like all of humanity shares a single conscious Mind.

If empathy and reason were sufficient to ensure moral behaviour then the only criminals we'd have would either be insensitive or irrational.

Alas, you see my vision... 🙂

Originally posted by lucifershammer
We've all done something or the other that is wrong. If all our wrongs will never be forgiven, then what's the point in doing good in the future?

I, of course, am guilty of being irrational...

Originally posted by lucifershammer
We've all done something or the other that is wrong. If all our wrongs will never be forgiven, then what's the point in doing good in the future?

Who's counting the wrongs you commit? When you start behaving in a right manner, your life is transformed. Your past wrongs become irrelevant. You can just let them go.