@moonbus saidSo you are assuming voter fraud is too rare to affect an election that is not close?
Only where there is reason to think the vote is very close, as in FL Bush/Gore, where it really did come down to a few hundred votes. Not in AZ 2020; 99 votes out of 2 million is trivial. Biden's margin in AZ was over 45,000; not close at all.
EDIT: all the so-called 'issues' have been debunked. Same person voting multiple times did not happen; it was a case of 'John Smith ...[text shortened]... students registered to vote at home but actually living at college somewhere else; perfectly legit.
That is a dangerous assumption. You have no idea how much election fraud goes undetected.
What if they did that in Saddam Hussein's Iraq? See where assuming can get you?
Recounting only close elections is foolish. There should always be a paper trail to make sure vote counting machines are not rigged to miscount votes. Then recounts can be done in at least 2 states every election cycle.
@metal-brain said"Well this race isn't a photo finish by any means, in fact the number 5 horse won by a few lengths, but by gosh we're going to take a lot of photos anyway. Millions of dollars worth of photos."
So you are assuming voter fraud is too rare to affect an election that is not close?
That is a dangerous assumption. You have no idea how much election fraud goes undetected.
What if they did that in Saddam Hussein's Iraq? See where assuming can get you?
Recounting only close elections is foolish. There should always be a paper trail to make sure vote counting machine ...[text shortened]... e not rigged to miscount votes. Then recounts can be done in at least 2 states every election cycle.
@moonbus saidLet's face it. This circus is happening because Trump went and had himself a "Wah Wah" fit !!
Only where there is reason to think the vote is very close, as in FL Bush/Gore, where it really did come down to a few hundred votes. Not in AZ 2020; 99 votes out of 2 million is trivial. Biden's margin in AZ was over 45,000; not close at all.
EDIT: all the so-called 'issues' have been debunked. Same person voting multiple times did not happen; it was a case of 'John Smith ...[text shortened]... students registered to vote at home but actually living at college somewhere else; perfectly legit.
Even so far as to say ....
"There's NO way Biden beat me by 7 million votes !!"
Wah Wah Wah !!!
He's still having those baby tantrums today.
@metal-brain saidThere is no comparison with Saddam Hussein's Iraq. After nearly a year to drum up some credible evidence of fraud, what has been presented? Nothing that stands up to scrutiny, nothing that a court would consider credible enough to even bother to look at, not even prima facie evidence of fraud. Nothing but baseless allegations, because one man's inflated ego can't accept that he lost to 'Sleepy Joe.'
So you are assuming voter fraud is too rare to affect an election that is not close?
That is a dangerous assumption. You have no idea how much election fraud goes undetected.
What if they did that in Saddam Hussein's Iraq? See where assuming can get you?
Recounting only close elections is foolish. There should always be a paper trail to make sure vote counting machine ...[text shortened]... e not rigged to miscount votes. Then recounts can be done in at least 2 states every election cycle.
@Metal-Brain
If there was proven massive fraud we would have known.
Only the ultrarightwingnutjob paranoid quacks like you thinks there was massive fraud BECAUSE your god king Trump TOLD you so, so naturally you keep PUKING it out ad nauseum.
@metal-brain saidThere is a dangerous assumption out there.
So you are assuming voter fraud is too rare to affect an election that is not close?
That is a dangerous assumption. You have no idea how much election fraud goes undetected.
What if they did that in Saddam Hussein's Iraq? See where assuming can get you?
Recounting only close elections is foolish. There should always be a paper trail to make sure vote counting machine ...[text shortened]... e not rigged to miscount votes. Then recounts can be done in at least 2 states every election cycle.
The notion that there was voter fraud.
Maybe it's time to move the discussion on this topic back to square one.
Where was there voter fraud ??
I ask because all I am hearing is an overused punch line that has no foundation in fact.
"Voter fraud" is nothing more than a punchline for a continuing narrative of misinformation which has been designed to provide cover for a slew of voter suppression legislation across the country.
@wildgrass saidWhat if they did that in Saddam Hussein's Iraq?
"Well this race isn't a photo finish by any means, in fact the number 5 horse won by a few lengths, but by gosh we're going to take a lot of photos anyway. Millions of dollars worth of photos."
Would that make sense? I'm sure the Baath party said the same sort of things you are. Saddam always won a large majority of the votes despite Iraq being a Shiite majority nation.
We all know widespread election fraud is possible. Why are you assuming it cannot happen here?
@moonbus saidThat is what they said in Saddam Hussein's Iraq.
There is no comparison with Saddam Hussein's Iraq. After nearly a year to drum up some credible evidence of fraud, what has been presented? Nothing that stands up to scrutiny, nothing that a court would consider credible enough to even bother to look at, not even prima facie evidence of fraud. Nothing but baseless allegations, because one man's inflated ego can't accept that he lost to 'Sleepy Joe.'
You don't expect anyone to admit they fixed the elections do you? They never found any evidence of election fraud in Iraq either. The courts there never accepted any election fraud claims as credible.
Does that mean Saddam won the elections there fair and square? The Sunnis are a minority, yet they always won. You know better.
@mghrn55 saidThere is voter fraud in the USA. It happens every year and I once put out a list of of them. I used it to find 10 dead people that voted to win a bet against wildgrass. He didn't think I could do it and I did.
There is a dangerous assumption out there.
The notion that there was voter fraud.
Maybe it's time to move the discussion on this topic back to square one.
Where was there voter fraud ??
I ask because all I am hearing is an overused punch line that has no foundation in fact.
"Voter fraud" is nothing more than a punchline for a continuing narrative of misinformation which has been designed to provide cover for a slew of voter suppression legislation across the country.
Mail in ballots make vote buying easy. All you have to do is have them sign it and you can write in the rest. Cash, Cigs and liqour are common bribes. Happens all the time.
@metal-brain saidI am not assuming it cannot happen. There is no reason to accept the allegation that there were many cases of fraud which the system did not catch. I am asserting that there is no evidence that it did happen, on a scale which affected the result.
What if they did that in Saddam Hussein's Iraq?
Would that make sense? I'm sure the Baath party said the same sort of things you are. Saddam always won a large majority of the votes despite Iraq being a Shiite majority nation.
We all know widespread election fraud is possible. Why are you assuming it cannot happen here?
Of course fraud is possible. It is not necessary to rule out possible fraud in order to certify an election result. After a year of investigations, audits, recounts, and court cases thrown out for lack of evidence, we can put it to rest. It did not in fact happen on a scale which affected the result.
The U.S. voting system is robust against widespread attempts at fraud; multiple audits have proven this. 10 dead people voting did not affect the result; nor are 10 dead voters evidence of fraud. In at least one reported case, the person voted while still alive but died before the ballot was received by the electoral commission -- so, not every case of an invalid vote is a case of fraud. The system catches these cases and does not count them.
Yes, of course, mail-in ballots can be filled out by someone else who bribes the proper recipient into signing a blank ballot. Have you so little respect for your fellow Americans that you think they would, in gigantic numbers, sell their sacred right to vote for a can of beer? Sure, it's possible; but we don't have to rule out such an absurd possibility. It did not happen, on a scale which affected the result.
So what if who did what in Saddam Hussein's Iraq? Your reference to Saddam's Baath Party is absurd. There is no evidence that the U.S. voting system is as corrupt as was Saddam's Iraq (though, if the Republican Party's legislative agenda gets through, it might become so).
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@Metal-Brain
Here is how your argument sounds:
<<Isn't it possible that meteorites struck and damaged 15,000 cars across the whole state last night and the insurance companies replaced them all with duplicates in the wee hours and everyone has been stricken by a fit of collective amnesia so no one remembers the events. We all know this is possible. How can you assume it is not possible? You cannot prove it is impossible. Happens all the time.>>
Yup, that's you in nutshell. I readily grant that some car somewhere somewhen probably was struck by a meteorite and replaced by the insurance company. But not last night and not across the whole state. The evidence just isn't there. You're chasing fairy dust.
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@moonbus said"There is no reason to accept the allegation that there were many cases of fraud which the system did not catch."
I am not assuming it cannot happen. There is no reason to accept the allegation that there were many cases of fraud which the system did not catch. I am asserting that there is no evidence that it did happen, on a scale which affected the result.
Of course fraud is possible. It is not necessary to rule out possible fraud in order to certify an ...[text shortened]... ddam's Iraq (though, if the Republican Party's legislative agenda gets through, it might become so).
There is no reason not to. They didn't catch it in Saddam Hussein's Iraq, so what does that tell you? Nobody knows how much voter fraud goes undetected. With the increased mail in votes that makes vote buying super easy and easy to get away with as well.
" I am asserting that there is no evidence that it did happen, [i]on a scale which affected the result.
I am asserting there is no evidence that it didn't happen on a scale which affected the result.
An unknown is an unknown. I never pretended I knew, but you are. You are making assumptions without evidence for or against. Admit you don't know. You don't.
"There is no evidence that the U.S. voting system is as corrupt as was Saddam's Iraq"
There is no evidence it is not. Holding elections in Saddam's Iraq was to merely give the appearance of democracy. If it didn't fool at least some people they would not bother paying the expense for fake elections. How do you know any election is legit? They could all be shams for all you know.
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@metal-brain saidYou speak of the .0000001% of the ballots that may be suspicious ?
There is voter fraud in the USA. It happens every year and I once put out a list of of them. I used it to find 10 dead people that voted to win a bet against wildgrass. He didn't think I could do it and I did.
Mail in ballots make vote buying easy. All you have to do is have them sign it and you can write in the rest. Cash, Cigs and liqour are common bribes. Happens all the time.
And certainly insignificant to errors in counting the votes .0001%.
Sure. Keep up the white noise while those in the background work on the voter suppression tactics.
Oh damm it !! I just found some bamboo in my salad. 😆
@metal-brain saidThe burden of proof is on those who claim that fraud occurred.
"There is no reason to accept the allegation that there were many cases of fraud which the system did not catch."
There is no reason not to. They didn't catch it in Saddam Hussein's Iraq, so what does that tell you? Nobody knows how much voter fraud goes undetected. With the increased mail in votes that makes vote buying super easy and easy to get away with as well.
...[text shortened]... for fake elections. How do you know any election is legit? They could all be shams for all you know.
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@metal-brain saidWe have integrated many means by which to check that elections are being conducted fairly and in a non-partisan way. Audits are not required.
What if they did that in Saddam Hussein's Iraq?
Would that make sense? I'm sure the Baath party said the same sort of things you are. Saddam always won a large majority of the votes despite Iraq being a Shiite majority nation.
We all know widespread election fraud is possible. Why are you assuming it cannot happen here?
I suppose it could happen here, if those checks are removed. However, they have not. The only reason this particular election was thrown into question was because the guy with the biggest loudspeaker started saying that he would only lose the election if it was rigged.