Brexit? Let’s boot Poland out of the EU!

@philokalia said
Aw, but you see, there is the idea of a global monoculture. I forget the name of the man who said it, but some people even refer to this as post-culture.

It radically differs from modern & premodern ideas of culture and identity, and it becomes a situation where everywhere becomes essentially th esame.

You kind of see it now throughout the world -- the langua ...[text shortened]... kids playing FIFA or CS: GO.

There is a certain sameness that overwhelms and infects everything.

There is also more choice and diversity.
To take your example of restaurants; sure there are the world brands but also
most affluent cities are blessed with Indian, Chinese, Malaysian, Thai, French,
Italian, Spanish, Greek, Turkish etc. restaurants.

@divegeester said
In 2018 the UK had, albeit marginally, more trade outside of the EU within it.

So this europhilic rhetoric about “client states” outside of the EU is moot. Besides the UK will still trade with the EU post Brexit.

You do realise you are probably wrong. Can’t dind the data now though.
Trade currently is: more than half the trade is EU.

And... this is the important part... trade from outside the EU is based on EU trade dealing rules. When the transition period is over, all these trade deals stop for the UK. And WTO rules will apply.

How many new trade deals has the UK arranged?

@philokalia said
Aw, but you see, there is the idea of a global monoculture. I forget the name of the man who said it, but some people even refer to this as post-culture.

It radically differs from modern & premodern ideas of culture and identity, and it becomes a situation where everywhere becomes essentially th esame.

You kind of see it now throughout the world -- the langua ...[text shortened]... kids playing FIFA or CS: GO.

There is a certain sameness that overwhelms and infects everything.

“ @philokalia said
Aw, but you see, there is the idea of a global monoculture. I forget the name of the man who said it, but some people even refer to this as post-culture.”

I don’t need their names I’m sure these phrases have been coined but their just incorrect. Global brands do not infer a global culture.
“same Pride marches” well that would be because of the biggest and oldest example of monoculture rearing it’s ugly head, namely, monotheism, clearly the LGBT+ community have a shared global experience of oppression so of course they react in a globalised fashion.
It’s telling that you never mentioned the examples of Christian and Islamic Imperialism given that they are the most obvious and successful examples of global mono cultures.

@divegeester said
New Zealand seems to do OK. Also Australia, Canada, Norway.

I thought doom and gloom as an argument against Brexit was constrained to car manufacturers leaving in droves, short supplies of medicines and long queues at passport control. Now it seems that we are going to starve while the world watches and be torn to shreds by Russia or America.

Well yeah, they all do fine because they already have their international trade set up. The Norway model is exactly what Nigel Farage said he was campaigning for during the referendum - "Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing" - and then as soon as he'd won his referendum, started claiming that the Norway model would be a betrayal of our sovereignty. Both Norway and Switzerland are part of the single market, as, of course, you know, and accept large swathes of EU legislation in order to be so.

Canada's doing OK in the sense that it's free and prosperous, but its trade policies, food safety and environmental standards are basically dictated in Washington. Canada, in order to achieve a trade deal with the EU, strove to weaken food safety standards to North American levels.

Actually I wasn't really talking specifically about Brexit. There are plenty of sensible Brexit options, and I was only a soft Remainer (i.e., voted to stay grudgingly, was really glad we were never in the single currency, etc). But the Brexit process is now in the hands of politicians and unelected advisers whose deliberate and nearly explicit goal is to damage this country to enrich themselves. Men like Farage and Arron Banks are proponents of disaster capitalism: they actively want to destroy our economy so that they can swoop in like vultures and devour the scraps.

But actually, little of my argument was about Brexit specifically. I was talking about what ought to be the central purpose of the EU: to enable Europe to be an agent in the affairs of the world rather than an object. London's never going to be the capital of a superpower again; Brussels could be. I think that would be in the interests of more or less everyone who lives between Dublin and Tallinn.

@divegeester said
The state of the US is nowhere near civil war let alone “on the verge” of it. And I doubt that the political corruption, as blatant as it is, is anywhere near approaching Russia’s.

That's why I said "in the developed world" - most sources class Russia as a developing country. If we define the developed world as the UN does - i.e., Europe outside the Balkans, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea and Japan - I think it's pretty obvious that the level of corruption in the US is anomalous.

As for "on the verge of civil war", it's a pardonable exaggeration.

@divegeester said
Well you’re talking “client states” was what I was responding to.

A "client state" is a state that basically has to do what another, more powerful state says. That definition goes well beyond trade.

@philokalia said
This was a very interesting post to me.

I had decided I needed to sit on it a few days before responding, and I did...

I guess I would say that I did not imagine European states as requiring to stand up to the US, or to compete with it. Rather, I thought in terms of NATO, which is honestly a bad idea, because you are right: the classical powers of Europe sho ...[text shortened]... osophy guy and there are too many wires going back to realpolitik to make it appealing to me.

Utter bollocks. Your entire post is utter bollocks.

@shavixmir said
You do realise you are probably wrong.

It was from GOV.uk. However different sources give different data.

@teinosuke said
A "client state" is a state that basically has to do what another, more powerful state says. That definition goes well beyond trade.

I’m aware of what it is, it was your use of it as a choice the UK has to make that I was referring to.

@shavixmir said
You do realise you are probably wrong. Can’t dind the data now though.
Trade currently is: more than half the trade is EU.

You are probably looking at trade in goods.
When services are included a little more than half is with non-EU countries.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/905083/200730_Trade_and_Investment_Core_Statistics_Book.pdf

@wolfgang59 said
There is also more choice and diversity.
To take your example of restaurants; sure there are the world brands but also
most affluent cities are blessed with Indian, Chinese, Malaysian, Thai, French,
Italian, Spanish, Greek, Turkish etc. restaurants.

There was an amazing Peruvian restaurant I used to eat at run by a Korean woman who lived in Peru.

One of the most famous Chinese culinary chefs is actually a Korean from Korea.

Some of the best hamburgers I've ever eaten were made by Koreans;.

Point being... you do not need "multikulti" as a policy to have nice foreign food.

Now, I am definitely not against legal immigration that benefits botht he immigrant and the local community.

But I think diversity as the end goal of an immigration policy is foolish.

@kevcvs57 said
“ @philokalia said
Aw, but you see, there is the idea of a global monoculture. I forget the name of the man who said it, but some people even refer to this as post-culture.”

I don’t need their names I’m sure these phrases have been coined but their just incorrect. Global brands do not infer a global culture.
“same Pride marches” well that would be because ...[text shortened]... ic Imperialism given that they are the most obvious and successful examples of global mono cultures.

I think you do not understand Asia.

In the 1950s, less than a tenth of people in Korea or Japan were Christian, but there was no LGBTQ community, and those who existed with those inclinations would have been considered pariahs and perverts.

There are gay Koreans right now who suffer being disowned by parents who are completely areligious or Buddhist.

I do not believe this is some imported cultural attitude, either. I think this is the default of most societies that are very utility oriented, who believe everything has to serve its given purpose.

It's hard to explain, but let's put it this way...

There's two types of people:

Type I: They live in the context of their family and need to be of service & utility. They do not think of themselves as individuals because so much of their joy and pleasure comes from positive feedback & reinforcement from their family.

Type II: They live in the context of themselves, and they tend to be independent and have plenty of options. They can direct their life towards personal goals and hobbies.

Type I societies tend to produce traditionalist views.

Type II societies tend to produce liberal views.

Of course, it can shift, and there is a great variety of things... But this is how I understand the older generation.

@philokalia said
I think you do not understand Asia.

In the 1950s, less than a tenth of people in Korea or Japan were Christian, but there was no LGBTQ community, and those who existed with those inclinations would have been considered pariahs and perverts.

There are gay Koreans right now who suffer being disowned by parents who are completely areligious or Buddhist.

I do not b ...[text shortened]... shift, and there is a great variety of things... But this is how I understand the older generation.

Sounds like you're saying conservatives are collectivists and liberals are into personal freedom.

@philokalia said
But I think diversity as the end goal of an immigration policy is foolish.

Does any country have that policy?

@philokalia said
I think you do not understand Asia.

In the 1950s, less than a tenth of people in Korea or Japan were Christian, but there was no LGBTQ community, and those who existed with those inclinations would have been considered pariahs and perverts.

There are gay Koreans right now who suffer being disowned by parents who are completely areligious or Buddhist.

I do not b ...[text shortened]... shift, and there is a great variety of things... But this is how I understand the older generation.

“In the 1950s, less than a tenth of people in Korea or Japan were Christian, but there was no LGBTQ community, and those who existed with those inclinations would have been considered pariahs and perverts.”
I believe this to be a false picture of Asia in regard to your claim that “there was no LGBT+ community” and I don’t believe you come close to understanding such a vast and diverse geographical entity any more than I do.

“ @philokalia said
I think you do not understand Asia.

In the 1950s, less than a tenth of people in Korea or Japan were Christian, but there was no LGBTQ community, and those who existed with those inclinations would have been considered pariahs and perverts.

“There are gay Koreans right now who suffer being disowned by parents who are completely areligious or Buddhist.”
There a Gay Americans Greeks and Brits who are disowned by there parents 🤷🏻‍♂️ And again your claim of Asia being irreligious sounds completely false, don’t assume that being non monotheistic translates as irreligious.
The LGBT+ ‘community has been amongst us since the dawn of our evolution and in evolutionary terms is totally utilitarian in terms of giving a group excess adults for child rearing and food gathering.

“ I do not believe this is some imported cultural attitude, either. I think this is the default of most societies that are very utility oriented, who believe everything has to serve its given purpose.”
Well they certainly sound religious to me, who or what gave them this “given purpose”?

“ Type I: They live in the context of their family and need to be of service & utility. They do not think of themselves as individuals because so much of their joy and pleasure comes from positive feedback & reinforcement from their family.

Type II: They live in the context of themselves, and they tend to be independent and have plenty of options. They can direct their life towards personal goals and hobbies.

Type I societies tend to produce traditionalist views.

Type II societies tend to produce liberal views. “

So liberals, and especially gay liberals are fundamentally selfish, whilst straight conservatives religious types are fundamentally self sacrificing team players. How convenient for you Phil.