@athousandyoung saidThis is because the mainstream conservatives in most of these countries are classical liberals, and thus truly are liberals in most contexts.
Sounds like you're saying conservatives are collectivists and liberals are into personal freedom.
As it stands, the American Conservatives are still viewing the world through the lens of greater personal positive liberties, this is ultimately a liberal position.
@wolfgang59 saidYou are right. Perhaps you could say that Canada actually goes for that, but there is also definitely a pragmatic motivation in addition to humanitarian concerns, but you could say that diveristy ends up being the flag under which this stuff flies.
Does any country have that policy?
You could say that this is all a part of globalism, and that diveristy is a value (or facade) put forth by globalsim.
@kevcvs57 said[Sadly my time is up but I will respond to this tomorrow]
“In the 1950s, less than a tenth of people in Korea or Japan were Christian, but there was no LGBTQ community, and those who existed with those inclinations would have been considered pariahs and perverts.”
I believe this to be a false picture of Asia in regard to your claim that “there was no LGBT+ community” and I don’t believe you come close to understanding such a vast ...[text shortened]... atives religious types are fundamentally self sacrificing team players. How convenient for you Phil.
@philokalia saidWell put. I am a classical Liberal - of 100 years ago lol.
This is because the mainstream conservatives in most of these countries are classical liberals, and thus truly are liberals in most contexts.
As it stands, the American Conservatives are still viewing the world through the lens of greater personal positive liberties, this is ultimately a liberal position.
We believe in freedom, ALL freedoms, including freedom of economy, which
is the one freedom that comes under attack the most by neoliberals
@philokalia saidSo Korean conservatives are equivalent to American liberals and Korean liberals are equivalent to American conservatives?
This is because the mainstream conservatives in most of these countries are classical liberals, and thus truly are liberals in most contexts.
As it stands, the American Conservatives are still viewing the world through the lens of greater personal positive liberties, this is ultimately a liberal position.
@athousandyoung saidNo, it's very complicated.
So Korean conservatives are equivalent to American liberals and Korean liberals are equivalent to American conservatives?
For instance, Korean conservatives tend to model themselves off of American conservatives fiscally, and actually they buy far more into multikulti than the Korean left.
The Korean left, of course, has a younger generation that believes in a more European model and pushes for Soros style liberalism, but there's also a generally nationalistic strain that exists and views American interference as a sort of imperialism which denies Korean sovereignty. There's this weird dynamic where the free trade right wing seems to buddy up with the Japanese and the Korean left actually looks more nationalistic in opposition to them.
Economic nationalism also goes a long way here.
The President is also easily the most left wing we've ever had, but he is also not budging an inch on LGBTQ in spite of also billing himself as a feminist president.
@kevcvs57 saidWell, sure, I am speaking about Korea specifically, and what I believe I understand to be Japanese norms. I know gay people who were in Japan and said that it was just as stifling and you would get the same response that you would hear Koreans saying even just 10-15 years ago: "There are no gays in Korea."
“In the 1950s, less than a tenth of people in Korea or Japan were Christian, but there was no LGBTQ community, and those who existed with those inclinations would have been considered pariahs and perverts.”
I believe this to be a false picture of Asia in regard to your claim that “there was no LGBT+ community” and I don’t believe you come close to understanding such a vast and diverse geographical entity any more than I do.
(A slightly hyperbolic expression, of course, as people would acknowledge that such behavior invariably does exist, but as a cultural identity, it was largely denied.)
I am sure that there could have been different scenes out there, but generally speaking, it would be anomalous for an Asian cultural group to have embraced LGBTQ that far back.
If there actually were a bunch of soceities where it was mainstreamed, do let me me know. Id' be very surprised and I very much like surprises.
@kevcvs57 saidOh, I am kind of surprised. I thought I had quoted somebody who had blamed anti-LGBTQ sentiment on monotheism.
“There are gay Koreans right now who suffer being disowned by parents who are completely areligious or Buddhist.”
There a Gay Americans Greeks and Brits who are disowned by there parents 🤷🏻♂️ And again your claim of Asia being irreligious sounds completely false, don’t assume that being non monotheistic translates as irreligious.
The LGBT+ ‘community has been amongst us s ...[text shortened]... s totally utilitarian in terms of giving a group excess adults for child rearing and food gathering.
Someone who had said:
I don’t need their names I’m sure these phrases have been coined but their just incorrect. Global brands do not infer a global culture.
“same Pride marches” well that would be because of the biggest and oldest example of monoculture rearing it’s ugly head, namely, monotheism, clearly the LGBT+ community have a shared global experience of oppression so of course they react in a globalised fashion.
It’s telling that you never mentioned the examples of Christian and Islamic Imperialism given that they are the most obvious and successful examples of global mono cultures.
If you think monotheism is not in play in anti-LGBTQ sentiment in a significant amount of countries, then we agree.
The LGBT+ ‘community has been amongst us since the dawn of our evolution and in evolutionary terms is totally utilitarian in terms of giving a group excess adults for child rearing and food gathering.
There are tribes in Papua New Guinea that practice things that would get me kicked off of the message board for referencing in any amount of detail. I would not be surprised to hear about sxually diverse practices.
But from an evolutionary perspective, I think it is generally the case that social fitness comes first and foremost, and it has been the trend for soceities to tend towards monogamous pairing off as the norm (with polygamous pairing off down for elites occasionally), and a domestic division of labor where stronger males take on a different set of tasks than females who lack the same upper body strength.
It does not make sense for there to be pairs of men in which a healthy bodied male is involved in domestic rearing as opposed to more strenuous labor that is not able to be performed by women, so I think it was not common.
It is also true that, in many communities, women were a sort of cattle. Indeed, some of the Spartan homosexuality exists in a context of gynophobia. But IDK. A lot of ancient history is contentious, let alone tribal history.
Very big & fun topic, though.
@kevcvs57 saidMaybe I did a poor job of sounding unbiased. I apologize.
So liberals, and especially gay liberals are fundamentally selfish, whilst straight conservatives religious types are fundamentally self sacrificing team players. How convenient for you Phil.
You could spin it so Type I are da ebil facist nutzies! and Type II are enlightened progressives who gave us the five-day working week and human rights.
I did not think you would be so sensitive to my words -- I am a clumsy speaker, so if I offend you, please just reinterpret it in a way that is more friendly.
I am here to make friends, not enemies.
@philokalia saidDespite all that, would you agree that no country has diversity as
You are right. Perhaps you could say that Canada actually goes for that, but there is also definitely a pragmatic motivation in addition to humanitarian concerns, but you could say that diveristy ends up being the flag under which this stuff flies.
You could say that this is all a part of globalism, and that diveristy is a value (or facade) put forth by globalsim.
the end goal of an immigration policy? If not can you cite one.
@wolfgang59 saidI am not sure.
Despite all that, would you agree that no country has diversity as
the end goal of an immigration policy? If not can you cite one.
I can see how, no matter what happens, it could be spun in one direction or the other. It means different things to different people. I do not think that the economy will always be the primary motivation of those involved.
@philokalia saidYeah wherever Christianity went bigotry followed.. LGBT+ people in Africa are still suffering from colonial laws based on biblical text as they are in the West to a lesser extent.
Oh, I am kind of surprised. I thought I had quoted somebody who had blamed anti-LGBTQ sentiment on monotheism.
Someone who had said:
[quote]I don’t need their names I’m sure these phrases have been coined but their just incorrect. Global brands do not infer a global culture.
“same Pride marches” well that would be because of the biggest and oldest example of monocul ...[text shortened]... A lot of ancient history is contentious, let alone tribal history.
Very big & fun topic, though.
Your problem is you have offered not one shred of evidence other than your anecdotal non evidence about Asia based on Korea.
Your other problem is that you started this mini thread by remonstrating against monoculturalism whilst being an avid Christian one of the biggest exercises in monoculture in the history of mankind.
A monotheist who doesn’t like the idea of monoculture, it can’t be easy for you.
Lastly there are Gay communities in every corner of the planet, there always has been and unfortunately for their bigoted enemies there always will be. The fact that they don’t invite you to their parties doesn’t mean their not there. They are a fact of life that you’ll have to live with I’m afraid.
@philokalia saidGiven that no country has the policy, and that no country has ever had this policy, and that it seems likely no country ever will.
But I think diversity as the end goal of an immigration policy is foolish.
What was your motivation in stating the obvious?
@kevcvs57 saidThis is an interestign take.
A monotheist who doesn’t like the idea of monoculture, it can’t be easy for you.
You know, in Orthodoxy, there are many cultures united in one church, and each country carries on its own traditions within the Orthodox context. A missionary I met over here that was previously in Africa had told me about how the effort is actually to get them to worship in their language, with their culture, and simply to execute the Divine Liturgy faithfully.
You would say that virtue transcends culture, yes?
I think of it as Christianity is intended to transcend culture.
Which is why there are amazing Christians of incredibly different backgrounds throughotu the world.
@kevcvs57 saidNearly all of these societies were Type I societies. Many of these soceities are still Type I societies.
Yeah wherever Christianity went bigotry followed.. LGBT+ people in Africa are still suffering from colonial laws based on biblical text as they are in the West to a lesser extent.
There would have been no "LGBT+" people. There would be people that practice these things, of course, but the idea that there were gay bars in 19th century Kyeongju is enough to make me chuckle.
People kept their women under lock & key. There were public executions. The greatest luxury most people had were homebrewed alcohol and the occasional flank of pork fatback. You turned 15 and they brought up a girl on a donkey who was 2 years older from another village -- you saw your wife a few hours before you married her. The town would feast for a few days. Then you would be back to working fields or boats, or maybe you were the 1 in 10 who were skilled labor and you spent 14 hours a day molding & firing clay pots or banging out iron farm tools.
There were no communities like this in the average society. This is fantasy.