@wolfgang59 saidSo, I think I was wrong in stating what I did.
Given that no country has the policy, and that no country has ever had this policy, and that it seems likely no country ever will.
What was your motivation in stating the obvious?
You win this one.
I should have been more careful with my words.
God bless.
@philokalia saidI assume your now introducing anecdotal evidence from a 19th century Greek village. Try going to Ancient Greece and you will find gay relationships were not only accepted and openly conducted but amongst warriors it was considered effeminate to not be in a homosexual relationship.
Nearly all of these societies were Type I societies. Many of these soceities are still Type I societies.
There would have been no "LGBT+" people. There would be people that practice these things, of course, but the idea that there were gay bars in 19th century Kyeongju is enough to make me chuckle.
People kept their women under lock & key. There were public executi ...[text shortened]... ut iron farm tools.
There were no communities like this in the average society. This is fantasy.
Of course this was pre Christian Greece where someone with your outlook would have been chuckling all the way to the ostracised outskirts of society.
@kevcvs57 saidWhat about 19th century Korea?
I assume your now introducing anecdotal evidence from a 19th century Greek village. Try going to Ancient Greece and you will find gay relationships were not only accepted and openly conducted but amongst warriors it was considered effeminate to not be in a homosexual relationship.
Of course this was pre Christian Greece where someone with your outlook would have been chuckling all the way to the ostracised outskirts of society.
@philokalia saidJust as many gay people as there are in 21st century Korea. What’s your point, it seems to be that if gay people are oppressed to the point of invisibility then they don’t exist, but they do exist and have always existed as roughly the same % of any given population.
What about 19th century Korea?
@philokalia saidI've not won anything.
So, I think I was wrong in stating what I did.
You win this one.
I should have been more careful with my words.
God bless.
And please don't do the "God bless" thing ... that's just for your benefit.
Thanks. 😍
@kevcvs57 saidI actually think it is the case that sexuality can be very flexible.
Just as many gay people as there are in 21st century Korea. What’s your point, it seems to be that if gay people are oppressed to the point of invisibility then they don’t exist, but they do exist and have always existed as roughly the same % of any given population.
If there is a period in which Greek men regularly commit pederasty, it is because a significant amount of men can acquire such a taste.
If there is a period when few men are doing it behind closed doors, it is because many men who may even have this taste can essentially lose it and simply be involved in another form of it.
I am very comfortable with the idea that sexuality is not fixed, but flexible, and this is a viewpoint many encourage me to have... but when you draw it to a conclusion that they do not approve of, they get angry.
@philokalia saidYour comments on Japan are historically illiterate.
I think you do not understand Asia.
In the 1950s, less than a tenth of people in Korea or Japan were Christian, but there was no LGBTQ community, and those who existed with those inclinations would have been considered pariahs and perverts.
Homosexuality was widely practiced in pre-modern Japan (before 1868), and is well documented in the arts and literature of the Edo Period (1603-1868). Saikaku, the distinguished novelist of the period, dramatised both heterosexual and homosexual affairs and produced one work, The Great Mirror of Male Love, devoted entirely to narratives of same-sex love. These were particularly common among monks and samurai and, as in Ancient Greece, tended to be age-structured (an adult man would take an adolescent boy as his partner). Many participants had affairs with women as well, but this was not always the case.
Gary Leupp writes in Male Colors, a book about homosexuality in pre-modern Japan:
"In this brilliant, refined, and tolerant milieu, we have, not surprisingly, evidence of a self conscious sub-culture. Though the Great Mirror occasionally portrays bisexual behavior, it is noteworthy that Saikaku more often depicts devotees of male love as a class who think of themselves as exclusive in their preferences, stress this exclusiveness by calling themselves "women haters" (onna-girai) and forming a unique community—a ‘male love sect’. No other early society shows this phenomenon quite so clearly as seventeenth century Japan."
When the modernising Meiji regime came to power in the late nineteenth century, Japan adopted many elements of Western culture and borrowed Western institutions and technology. Thus in 1872, homosexuality was made illegal in Japan in accordance with the legal codes of various European nations. It became legal again in 1880, after French lawyer G. E. Boissonade advised Japan to adopt a legal code based on France's (the Napoleonic code, being a wholly secular one, did not prohibit homosexuality).
Although, indeed, homosexuality was stigmatised in Japan in the 1950s, when the country, in a period of enforced Westernisation after the American Occupation, was moving towards a model based on the Western nuclear family and the notion of lifelong marriage, it remained legal and is the subject of various published fictions of the era, such as Yukio Mishima's Confessions of a Mask and Takehiko Fukunaga's Flowers of Grass.
@teinosuke saidMishima is a pretty grat figure -- really have meant to explore his work more.
Your comments on Japan are historically illiterate.
Homosexuality was widely practiced in pre-modern Japan (before 1868), and is well documented in the arts and literature of the Edo Period (1603-1868). Saikaku, the distinguished novelist of the period, dramatised both heterosexual and homosexual affairs and produced one work, The Great Mirror of Male Love, devoted entir ...[text shortened]... of the era, such as Yukio Mishima's Confessions of a Mask and Takehiko Fukunaga's Flowers of Grass.
I had assumed that there is longer roots in anti-homoseuxality in Japan. Of course, I was aware that there were periods of homosexuality being popularized, but I thought the roots of modern anti-homoseuxality was a bit deeper.
I believe it was the Shilla dynasty that was famous for a lot of homosexuality in its later reign.
But honestly, Korea was much like the Taliban in the late Joseun dynasty and had a great variety of extremist views, views that even led actively to the repression of Buddhism. Noble women were not allowed to leave their homes and would even wear something like hijab when they went out.
You know, to this day, Korean women when swimming in Korean pools and beaches will wear full shirts and shorts that cover their bodies, and men also generally wear shirts, when they swim -- yet when they are with their own gender, they let it all hang out... Modesty is very strong here, as is sexual conservatism. It has little to do with Christianity.
Partly because of this, I imagined that it might have some similar parallels with Japan. Indeed, one of the things that sometimes happens is people say Korea has inherited negative traits from Japan, and sometimes positive traits.
-Removed-It wasn't even a debate.
But sure.
He's totally not applicable to this thread.
But if anyone is interested to watch me be interrogated over using a philosopher who has been used by Marxists and classical liberals, check it out
https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/empathy-and-morality.186411
I think it's enough for anyone who wants to discuss Schmitt to go check out the thread in Spirituality where he organically came up.
But hey, I'll try to think about how I can use Schmitt organically in some threads in the Debates Forum just for you, @divegeester. Will that satisfy you?