Cop shooting Columbus Teen

@joe-shmo said
I don't have "theories". I have data, provided by the BJS, cited by YOU that clearly shows that blacks are "involved" in drug related homicide at a 10 fold relative rate to whites. And you say that doesn't justify increased attention from the police...

There is a fire raging out of control next to you in your home. Luckily no1 has two buckets of water that coul ...[text shortened]... al with the policing of the wall ) and instead try's "lawyering" the fire out by sheer will power...

Drug related murders are something like 1 in 4000 or 5000 arrests made in the US. You have produced zero evidence that this tiny subset of offenses directly effects police practices in the other 3999-4999. And you haven't because such evidence doesn't exist.

What you are doing is trying to reinforce the racial stereotype that blacks are inherently more violent and dangerous than other "races". To the extent that police officers accept such a stereotype, they will act accordingly. Thus this, besides overt racism among cops, explains the "disparate outcomes" i.e. they are the result of systemic racism.

@techsouth said
vivify: This is a red herring. No one is defending blacks who pull guns out on cops.

Techsouth: This is not a red herring. I believe you yourself cited 1099 citizens killed by cops in 1 year.

No, I did not cite such a figure.

vivify: For now, keep in mind my previous post: you cannot argue about police brutality toward blacks in a vacuum where everything is equal with how society treats blacks vs. whites.

You're talking about a broad issue that is not useful for evaluating police.
When you're discussing racial injustice from police, these "broad issues" are required.

But, this cannot be used in any way as a data point for police treating black people badly. Any attempted analysis that does not subtract events such as this out will not persuade me of anything bad about police.
They are "subtracted out". I am the one who started the OP discussing the shooting, and I am the one who said the cop was justified in doing so. So obviously, I'm referring to the unjust treatments of blacks (Floyd, Garner, Scott, etc.).

@no1marauder said
Drug related murders are something like 1 in 4000 or 5000 arrests made in the US. You have produced zero evidence that this tiny subset of offenses directly effects police practices in the other 3999-4999. And you haven't because such evidence doesn't exist.

What you are doing is trying to reinforce the racial stereotype that blacks are inherently more violent and dang ...[text shortened]... rt racism among cops, explains the "disparate outcomes" i.e. they are the result of systemic racism.

• In 2008, the homicide victimization rate for blacks (19.6
 homicides per 100,000) was 6 times higher than the rate for
 whites (3.3 homicides per 100,000).

• In 2008, the offending rate for blacks (24.7 offenders per
 100,000) was 7 times higher than the rate for whites (3.4
 offenders per 100,000) (Figure 18).

I guess these stats from the cited paper couldn't possibly be of any relevance either?

😉

You can kick and scream "racial stereotype" all you want. The facts are in. 12% of the population, over 50% of ALL Homicide. It can't get much clearer.

@vivify said
No, I did not cite such a figure.

My apologies. These broad numbers come up a lot as if they entail a complete analysis of the topic.

Please clarify in subsequent posts how you analyze what is a multivariable domain.

@joe-shmo said
• In 2008, the homicide victimization rate for blacks (19.6
 homicides per 100,000) was 6 times higher than the rate for
 whites (3.3 homicides per 100,000).

• In 2008, the offending rate for blacks (24.7 offenders per
 100,000) was 7 times higher than the rate for whites (3.4
 offenders per 100,000) (Figure 18).

I guess these stats from the cited paper coul ...[text shortened]... n. 12% of the population, over 50% of ALL Homicide. It can't get much clearer.

What exactly is "clear" to you about such stats in the context of this discussion?

Please give a specific answer.

@no1marauder said
What exactly is "clear" to you about such stats in the context of this discussion?

Please give a specific answer.

Its "clear" that police officers in certain neighborhoods ( Like any major metropolitan inner city in the US ) that perceive elevated threat levels when engaging with young black males are justified in that perception.

@joe-shmo said
Its "clear" that police officers in certain neighborhoods that perceive elevated threat levels when engaging with young black males are justified in that perception.

So you support racial profiling? i.e.

"Racial or ethnic profiling is the act of suspecting, targeting or discriminating against a person on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, rather than on individual suspicion." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling

Maybe you could tell me how many police officers were killed by "young black males" in 2020?

@no1marauder said
So you support racial profiling? i.e.

"Racial or ethnic profiling is the act of suspecting, targeting or discriminating against a person on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, rather than on individual suspicion." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling

Maybe you could tell me how many police officers were killed by "young black males" in 2020?

Maybe you could tell me how many police officers were killed by "young black males" in 2020?

2020 isn't out yet...you know that.


https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2019/topic-pages/tables/table-42.xls

Of the 44 offenders whose race was reported in 2019:

28 White - This includes Hispanic/Latinos - its difficult to delineate, so this is a worst case scenario European Whites.

15 Black

Thats a relative rate of 3 at least correcting for population demographics of the US.

But based off of this figure:

"The respondents in the "some other race" category are reclassified as white by the Census Bureau in its official estimates of race. This means that more than 90% of all Hispanic or Latino Americans are counted as "white" in certain statistics of the US government"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans

Furthermore, these proportions are verifiable if we assume White and Black are disjoint sets with each other, but both having some union with Hispanics.

We take:

W + B - WH - BH = Euro White + Afro Black

Using the data in the table:

28 + 15 - 0.9*14 -0.1*14 = 29

That agrees within reason of the tables value of Non Hispanic /Latino = 26

28 - 0.9*14 = 15.4 European White Offenders

RR = ( Black Offender % / % Pop ) / ( European Offender % / % Pop ) = (0.34/0.12) * ( 0.63/0.35 ) ≈ 5

So blacks kill officers safely between 3 to 5 times the rate of Euro whites

@joe-shmo said

Maybe you could tell me how many police officers were killed by "young black males" in 2020?

2020 isn't out yet...you know that.


https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2019/topic-pages/tables/table-42.xls

Of the 44 offenders whose race was reported in 2019:

28 White - This includes Hispanic/Latinos - its difficult to delineate, so this is a worst case scenari ...[text shortened]... 63/0.35 ) ≈ 5

So blacks kill officers safely between 3 to 5 times the rate of Euro whites

You didn't answer the question did you?

Do you support racial.profiling?

The numbers already given show that the average black encounters police several times more than the average white, so your figures show that a police officer has no more likelihood of being killed in an encounter with a black than with a white. And that the chance is remote at any rate; 6.8 million arrests and at least as many stops but only 44 fatalities.

In no way do such numbers justify your endorsement of racial profiling with the implied quicker use of force due to your perception of black "dangerousness".

You're seriously justifying more aggressive police treatment of blacks based on 15 murders in a country of 330 million in a year?

EDIT: BTW you do realize that Hispania was in Europe?

@no1marauder said
You didn't answer the question did you?

Do you support racial.profiling?

The numbers already given show that the average black encounters police several times more than the average white, so your figures show that a police officer has no more likelihood of being killed in an encounter with a black than with a white. And that the chance is remote at any rate; 10 mil ...[text shortened]... ial profiling with the implied quicker use of force due to your perception of black "dangerousness".

I need to see the poportion of all police interaction by race ( which I can’t find ) to say whites are just as likely to kill officers. If this proportion is significantly off from the population proportion I’ll adjust.

@joe-shmo said
I need to see the poportion of all police interaction by race ( which I can’t find ) to say whites are just as likely to kill officers. If this proportion is significantly off from the population proportion I’ll adjust.

You should adjust your support for racial profiling based on such meager numbers.

Down to zero.

@no1marauder said
You didn't answer the question did you?

Do you support racial.profiling?

The numbers already given show that the average black encounters police several times more than the average white, so your figures show that a police officer has no more likelihood of being killed in an encounter with a black than with a white. And that the chance is remote at any rate; 6.8 mi ...[text shortened]... ders in a country of 330 million in a year?

EDIT: BTW you do realize that Hispania was in Europe?

Do you support racial.profiling?

Pure "racial" profiling...No. But I do support the use of statistics and probabilities when assessing risk. No one seems to have any problem with male vs female criminal profiling. They all agree. As such, officers should exercise extra caution when dealing with males in general.

"44 fatalities" - Correction , its 49 fatalities. I said "44 fatalities where the race of the offender was reported". Apparently you couldn't be bothered to look at the table.

"You're seriously justifying more aggressive police treatment of blacks based on 15 murders in a country of 330 million in a year?"

1) There were only 12 unarmed black men killed by police in the same year in country of 330 million.
2) Now suddenly its convenient for you to use population statistics, as opposed to interaction statistics...got ya.

"BTW you do realize that Hispania was in Europe?"

"Latinos" hombre ( as in from Latin America ) make up the overwhelming majority of "Hispanics" in America. Nice try.

"Most Hispanic Americans are of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Salvadoran, Dominican, Guatemalan or Colombian origin."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans

@no1marauder said
You should adjust your support for racial profiling based on such meager numbers.

Down to zero.

Sure...If you can show me that the number of police interactions with blacks is equivalent to the number of police interactions with whites annually such as to negate that ugly factor of 5? Good Luck!

@joe-shmo said
Sure...If you can show me that the number of police interactions with blacks is equivalent to the number of police interactions with whites annually such as to negate that ugly factor of 5? Good Luck!

It is "ugly" to use racial stereotypes to justify disparate treatment of a minority by those wearing the costumes of the State. In literally millions of cases.

However, your admission that police indeed do racially profile and that you and other right wingers are fine with it, is a useful data point.