@techsouth saidNo. Just like not all instances of police harassing blacks make the news.
So it is your contention that all instances of police harassing white men picking up trash would be national news.
There are roughly 20,000 homicides per year in the US. How many do you remember? And of those you remember, why did you even hear of them? In case you haven't realized it, someone else picks the stories you hear.
Not every story makes *national* news. But it does make the news. Local outlets report such stories.
You claimed earlier that the news doesn't report stories of whites being abused by cops. You are clearly wrong about that. You attempted to dismiss the fact that blacks are targeted by police, unlike whites, with a false claim. Keep that in mind. They not only make local news, but the also make national headlines, like Daniel Shaver.
@vivify saidOf course they do.
That's quite a claim. You believe a news organization would deliberately not report news?
They skew the news by reporting all police shootings as being racist and unjustified. They hide the facts behind the shootings, making it look like cops were being racist. Every time, all the time.
@dood111 saidIt's getting pretty tiresome seeing you make claims with absolutely zero evidence to back up your claims.
Of course they do.
They skew the news by reporting all police shootings as being racist and unjustified. They hide the facts behind the shootings, making it look like cops were being racist. Every time, all the time.
Conservatives on this site just state things on a debate forum with support for it. Meanwhile, the liberals on this make the efforts to back up claims and properly cite claims from respected, factual sources.
For now, let's just file your unbacked assertion under "crap" for now.
@vivify saidWow I guess you don't look at the news at all.
It's getting pretty tiresome seeing you make claims with absolutely zero evidence to back up your claims.
Conservatives on this site just state things on a debate forum with support for it. Meanwhile, the liberals on this make the efforts to back up claims and properly cite claims from respected, factual sources.
For now, let's just file your unbacked assertion under "crap" for now.
@vivify saidLocal outlets don't report all arrests even.
No. Just like not all instances of police harassing blacks make the news.
There are roughly 20,000 homicides per year in the US. How many do you remember? And of those you remember, why did you even hear of them? In case you haven't realized it, someone else picks the stories you hear.
Not every story makes *national* news. But it does make the news. Local outl ...[text shortened]... t in mind. They not only make local news, but the also make national headlines, like Daniel Shaver.
Case in point, I was arrested many years ago (as a white man) for something that was largely a fictitious reporting by the police. That did not make the news. Therefore, not all arrests make the news. QED.
There are around 50 million police interactions per year in the US. Obviously not all make the news. The idea that there is not some kind of selection bias in news reporting is patently absurd. Not only is there selection bias in what local news reports, but it is absurd to think that national news doesn't have selection bias in what they pick up and amplify.
TechSouth: It seems true that blacks are stopped by police more frequently and for lesser reasons than whites.
vivify: You attempted to dismiss the fact that blacks are targeted by police...
TechSouth: Are examples like this against white endless also?
I don't think we'd ever know, because NBC doesn't collect nor report such instances.
Context: A discussion about cops harassing a man for picking up trash.
Point: There is selection bias in national news.
Your Counter Argument: National news does report this. As a counter-example to prove NBC reports incidents of whites being harassed for picking up garbage, you use an example of an un-armed white man killed by police.
If you don't think there is selection bias particularly in national news, ask yourself this: How many names of white men do you know who have been killed by police? And how many names of black men do you know who have been killed by police? Since in a typical year there will be more white men killed by police, if there was not some sort of selection bias then we should all know the names of more white men. This seems like a fair way to test the hypothesis. If you disagree, tell me why.
I'm sure you know the name of at least one of each. If you want to persuade me I'm wrong, then without googling, tell me all the names you know of men killed by police along with their "race". If that subset is from the news and is representative of the national statistics, then you might have a point. But, just naming one white guy (e.g. Shaver) does not prove the case you're trying to prove. Anyone trained in analysis would see that.
the real persuaders are BLM's.
The media wants compelling stories, of course, and wherever BLM goes is damn compelling news.
Protesting, flipping cars over, looting, shooting and killing, burning buildings, all the stuff people like to see.
The problem is, BLM only shows up when a black person has been killed by a white cop. Sound like a plan? Slick.
@techsouth saidThey don't have to. We're talking about flagrant abuses from police, not just any instance of cops arresting people.
Local outlets don't report all arrests even.
If you don't think there is selection bias particularly in national news, ask yourself this: How many names of white men do you know who have been killed by police? And how many names of black men do you know who have been killed by police?
You're correct that news outlets will focus more on sensational stories that will bring in ratings.
But there is also data showing that blacks are killed in disproportionately higher numbers; there's also data showing that "stop and frisk" ended up in blacks being targeted more; and there's also plenty of historical data showing blacks being abused and unfairly treated by not just cops, but society in general.
Such data is consistent with higher reporting of blacks being abused, harassed and killed by cops.
@vivify saidBlacks are killed disproportionately to population. Whites are killed by police disproportionately to police interactions (although you'd rightly point out that blacks may have more police interactions than they should).
They don't have to. We're talking about flagrant abuses from police, not just any instance of cops arresting people.
If you don't think there is selection bias particularly in national news, ask yourself this: How many names of white men do you know who have been killed by police? And how many names of black men do you know who have been killed by police?
You're c ...[text shortened]...
Such data is consistent with higher reporting of blacks being abused, harassed and killed by cops.
Still, if there were not a selection bias, the raw number of white's killed by police is more, should result in there being more news stories about whites killed by police. Unless the news is intentionally focusing more on black deaths.
There was a recent poll taken and it showed that among Democrats, more than half believed that black men are more likely to be killed by police than die in car accidents. That shows Democrats are WAY out of touch with reality.
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@techsouth saidWhites are killed disproportionately? Compared to who?
Whites are killed by police disproportionately to police interactions
You ignored something pretty vital in my post: the racial history of abuse toward blacks is consistent with the amount of reports seen.
The major flaw in your argument is that you're arguing from a vacuum where everything else between white and blacks are equal. They are not. You seem intent on deliberately ignoring the utter hatred and violence blacks have endured as if we have started from a clean slate.
You can't possibly separate the systemic racism blacks have endured in the justice system from law enforcement, which includes police.
Consider these two scenarios:
1) A group of high school students beat up a teen and take his money
2) A group of high schools students beat a gay teen and take his money
Why is one potentially more significant story than the other? Because of the history of hate gays receive. Should any prudent person ignore the fact that the teen was gay as a motive for the attack?
Now answer this: imagine that in the scenario above, gay teens are disproportionately attacked by school bullies: should we take the approach you're doing with blacks and assume it's just a coincidence that has nothing to do with bigotry?
@vivify saidYour analogy about lunch money misses an important component. Once the public has decided that gays are being attacked more and the news only reports attacks on gays, it continually reinforces the notions that gays are the ones under attack and the only ones under attack. At some point one needs to step back and asses whether it is actually true and if so how significantly so. If peoples perception are formed only by anecdotal evidence in the news, our perception will diverge further and further from reality in a self reinforcing vicious cycle.
Whites are killed disproportionately? Compared to who?
You ignored something pretty vital in my post: the racial history of abuse toward blacks is consistent with the amount of reports seen.
The major flaw in your argument is that you're arguing from a vacuum where everything else between white and blacks are equal. They are not. You seem intent on deliberately igno ...[text shortened]... ach you're doing with blacks and assume it's just a coincidence that has nothing to do with bigotry?
Last summer, after George Floyd many black families I know reacted in absolute terror for the risk to the lives of their own children. As a white man, I didn't understand the fear. So I educated myself and took a look at the cold hard numbers. After seeing the numbers I found that I understood even less than I did before. The risk of dying by police for a person neither intensely resisting arrest nor trying to seriously injure the police is somewhere in the neighborhood of death by shark bite.
I even took time to talk to my own kids. I explained that police fear for their life too. And even if you point a toy gun a police, you might get shot anyway. My kids don't always learn things as quick as I'd like, but I got the impression they already understood this from their already acquired common sense. Had they grown up in an environment that reinforces hatred for police, they may have just assumed the police have clairvoyance and can somehow know you're unarmed.
In the end, we'll end up where we started, and this is completely aside from your analogy about gays and lunch money. I have a hard time caring about someone who acts if they don't care about themselves.
You went to a bad school and have no job prospects, I have some sympathy for you. But you then try to shoot a police officer while being arrested, my sympathy ends.
It seems to be your position that police need to reform because a higher percentage of the black try to shoot or stab police officers and get killed in the process. (Now you're going to say, "but there are many cases where they're not trying to shoot or stab police". To which I would respond, that's statistically about like the risk of being struck by lightning. Numbers aren't perfect, but any analysis of police misconduct that doesn't ignore cases where someone is being attacked in such a way that they're life is in danger is of no interest to me).
The police involvement begins and ends in a very short time. If a person is pointing a gun at a police officer, there is no allowance for history (e.g. the black guy's grandparents had it harder). Again, if you act like you don't care about your own life, I can't help you no matter how bad your grandparents had it.
@vivify said===But there is also data showing that blacks are killed in disproportionately higher numbers===
They don't have to. We're talking about flagrant abuses from police, not just any instance of cops arresting people.
If you don't think there is selection bias particularly in national news, ask yourself this: How many names of white men do you know who have been killed by police? And how many names of black men do you know who have been killed by police?
You're c ...[text shortened]...
Such data is consistent with higher reporting of blacks being abused, harassed and killed by cops.
Okay, but disproportionate to what? Disproportionate to the share of the population? Sure.
But is share of population the best metric? What if you measured it based on proportion of blue collar* criminal suspects? Would it still be disproportionate?
You tell me. Which is the better metric?
* Tax cheats rarely get into confrontations with police.
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@techsouth saidI'm not sure where you get your info from, but in 2019 in the US 20 people were killed by lightning.https://www.statista.com/statistics/203715/injuries-and-fatalities-caused-by-lightning-in-the-us/#:~:text=Lightning%20damage%20in%20the%20U.S.[WORD TOO LONG].
Your analogy about lunch money misses an important component. Once the public has decided that gays are being attacked more and the news only reports attacks on gays, it continually reinforces the notions that gays are the ones under attack and the only ones under attack. At some point one needs to step back and asses whether it is actually true and if so how significantl ...[text shortened]... ike you don't care about your own life, I can't help you no matter how bad your grandparents had it.
There were 3 fatal shark bites in the US. https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/shark-attacks/yearly-worldwide-summary/
1099 were killed by police.
@sh76 saidThat "metric" only shows police engage with blacks more. It hardly shows why; for example, whites and blacks use and sell drugs in similar percentages according to FBI figures but blacks are many more times likely to be arrested on drug charges.
===But there is also data showing that blacks are killed in disproportionately higher numbers===
Okay, but disproportionate to what? Disproportionate to the share of the population? Sure.
But is share of population the best metric? What if you measured it based on proportion of blue collar* criminal suspects? Would it still be disproportionate?
You tell me. Which is the better metric?
* Tax cheats rarely get into confrontations with police.
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@no1marauder saidIf I had to take a guess, I would say because violence is a more prevalent feature in their drug deals... Blacks getting murdered ( by other blacks ) in gang related incidents tied to the selling of drugs at obscene rates tends to raise some red flags among law enforcement?!?
That "metric" only shows police engage with blacks more. It hardly shows why; for example, whites and blacks use and sell drugs in similar percentages according to FBI figures but blacks are many more times likely to be arrested on drug charges.