@mchill saidThere's nothing "irresponsible" about the studies' conclusion based on the numbers I gave in my posts on Pages 2-3. The study is comparing how many would have died from all causes if no vaccines had been created v. how many did die after they started being used in the US. 3 million seems about right based on the data.
SH - I understand what you're saying and agree the documentation on this has been (at best) sketchy. Personally, I think statements such as "COVID Vaccines Saved 3 Million Lives in US" is irresponsible, even if true, since it's far from provable.
Sadly, statements such as this serve to provide fuel to the anti - vax crowd, who are eager to minimize the value of vaccines, a concept promoted by our beloved ex-President, who knew absolutely nothing about medicine.
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Actually, 5 million is a very low estimate of the death toll from the pandemic:
"New estimates from the World Health Organization (WHO) show that the full death toll associated directly or indirectly with the COVID-19 pandemic (described as “excess mortality” ) between 1 January 2020 and 31 December 2021 was approximately 14.9 million (range 13.3 million to 16.6 million). "
https://www.who.int/news/item/05-05-2022-14.9-million-excess-deaths-were-associated-with-the-covid-19-pandemic-in-2020-and-2021
Surely this qualifies as a sufficient "risk of harm" to justify reasonable measures to quell, as much as possible, the spread of this deadly, contagious disease.
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@no1marauder saidWe're not talking about "inconvenience"
You'd think that more than 5 million dead, millions more hospitalized and millions more effected with disorders caused by COVID19 ("long COVID" ) worldwide would be sufficient to show "risk of harm" to any but a small group of nutters. But unfortunately we have governors here just as deranged as you:
This year we continued to push back on the radical left’s woke agend ...[text shortened]... ontagious diseases. That this is inconvenient to some is not a reason to vary from such principles.
Reasonable measures do not include destroying the lives, businesses and careers of the totally 100% innocent. i.e. people that don't have wuflu.
Reasonable measures do not include forcing a potentially fatal medical procedure.
Reasonable measures do not include forcing an untested (for long term effects) and therefore an experimental medical procedure.
Reasonable measures does not include 'elected officials' telling blatant lies. NZkuntfaceprimeminister: re the seizure syrup "You may catch covid but you will not get sick and you will not die."
Reasonable measures,etc (...just getting started)
Here's what solves everything. You're scared of the wuflu, you protect yourself, you take as many experimental drugs as you like and you pay for them. If you believe a mask will save you wear an effective one , full face, handle it properly, conduct a fit test when putting it on, do not play with it, taking it off and on, and you pay for it, you're welcome to, I urge you to if you think it may do something,.
I went the whole time without doing any of the BS, hung out with people who did the same, you'd think a super high risk group virtually guaranteed of succumbing to wuflu, never to my knowledge had wuflu, shook hands, never wore a mask, shared food. In our local Voices For Freedom group regular meetings there were old folk 70+ 80+ concerned about the over reach of goobermint, concerned about the lies they were being told, concerned about how easily people turned into unquestioning sheep, they did the same, a few caught it, no one went to hospital, no one died or came close.
@wajoma saidApparently the elected representatives of the People of New Zealand, guided by public health experts, disagreed with cranks like yourself regarding what are "reasonable measures" to safeguard the health and safety of the country's citizens. The evidence is fairly conclusive they made the correct call given the low rate of COVID deaths compared to other effected countries including my own.
Reasonable measures do not include destroying the lives, businesses and careers of the totally 100% innocent. i.e. people that don't have wuflu.
Reasonable measures do not include forcing a potentially fatal medical procedure.
Reasonable measures do not include forcing an untested (for long term effects) medical procedure.
Reasonable measures does not include 'elected ...[text shortened]... ng sheep, they did the same, a few caught it, no one went to hospital, no one died or came close. ,
@no1marauder saidSo reasonable measures for you includes forcing a potentially fatal experimental drug?
Apparently the elected representatives of the People of New Zealand, guided by public health experts, disagreed with cranks like yourself regarding what are "reasonable measures" to safeguard the health and safety of the country's citizens. The evidence is fairly conclusive they made the correct call given the low rate of COVID deaths compared to other effected countries including my own.
For you No1? You regard that as 'reasonable'?
@wajoma saidI don't regard anti-vaxxers' characterisations of proven effective and safe vaccines that have saved millions of lives as "reasonable".
So reasonable measures for you includes forcing a potentially fatal experimental drug?
For you No1? You regard that as 'reasonable'?
Moreover, no one was "forced" to receive them.
@no1marauder saidVery disappointing, you know, I know, everyone knows you haven't answered honestly here.
I don't regard anti-vaxxers' characterisations of proven effective and safe vaccines that have saved millions of lives as "reasonable".
Moreover, no one was "forced" to receive them.
Maybe you're trying to convince yourself, maybe you're not fully aware of how it was in NZ.
‘This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.’
@wajoma saidbeing truthful is not his strong point
Very disappointing, you know, I know, everyone knows you haven't answered honestly here.
Maybe you're trying to convince yourself, maybe you're not fully aware of how it was in NZ.
‘This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.’
@wajoma saidIf you were truthful and/or not deluded, you would give thanks that due to the wise policies of your country's leaders, thousands or more likely tens of thousands of New Zealanders were spared death from this disease and got to enjoy the coming of another New Year.
Very disappointing, you know, I know, everyone knows you haven't answered honestly here.
Maybe you're trying to convince yourself, maybe you're not fully aware of how it was in NZ.
‘This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.’
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@no1marauder saidDo you think it is reasonable measures to force a potentially harmful (proven), potentially fatal (proven) experimental (long term side effects unknown) drug on reluctant citizens?
If you were truthful and/or not deluded, you would give thanks that due to the wise policies of your country's leaders, thousands or more likely tens of thousands of New Zealanders were spared death from this disease and got to enjoy the coming of another New Year.
We'll get into the 'force' of it when you answer this question.
Do you think it is reasonable measures to force someone who has lost a friend or relative to the seizure shot to pay for the juice so that others may potentially experience the same loss?
BTW I have repeatedly said, if you believe in the clot shot you should take it as much and as often as you like.
ps, take the shot but if you do so because you were convinced by the nz prime ministers lies and you do get sick or die, sue the bitch.
@no1marauder saidWhat data? You dispute the data needed to prove what you are claiming.
There's nothing "irresponsible" about the studies' conclusion based on the numbers I gave in my posts on Pages 2-3. The study is comparing how many would have died from all causes if no vaccines had been created v. how many did die after they started being used in the US. 3 million seems about right based on the data.
Either you accept data or you don't. Which is it? Where is your data?
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@wajoma saidWhat part of "I don't regard anti-vaxxers' characterisations of proven effective and safe vaccines that have saved millions of lives as "reasonable"" didn't you get?
Do you think it is reasonable measures to force a potentially harmful (proven), potentially fatal (proven) experimental (long term side effects unknown) drug on reluctant citizens?
We'll get into the 'force' of it when you answer this question.
Do you think it is reasonable measures to force someone who has lost a friend or relative to the seizure shot to pay for the ju ...[text shortened]... because you were convinced by the nz prime ministers lies and you do get sick or die, sue the bitch.
I believe I've already stated that I have no intention of wasting further time "debating" anti-vaxxers' crank conspiracy theories - I spent two and a half years doing so and learned from experience that no amount of scientific data can possibly pass through your brainwashed skulls.
Contagious diseases require prevention measures that would not be acceptable in the case of non-contagious ones; IF there was a vaccine created for lung cancer, I wouldn't support people having to take it or having restrictions on them having contact with the public. But COVID19 is an extremely deadly, extremely contagious disease and New Zealand's largely successful measures to contain it were wise, reasonable public health measures.
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@no1marauder saidDo you deny people have suffered harm from the clot shot?
What part of "I don't regard anti-vaxxers' characterisations of proven effective and safe vaccines that have saved millions of lives as "reasonable"" didn't you get?
I believe I've already stated that I have no intention of wasting further time "debating" anti-vaxxers' crank conspiracy theories - I spent two and a half years doing so and learned from experience that no ...[text shortened]... extremely contagious disease and New Zealand's largely successful measures to contain it were wise.
Do you deny people have died from the clot shot?
Do you claim long term side effects are known when the constantly being revised juice has only been around 2 years?
Those aren't 'conspiracy theories' those are known facts.
I'm no anti-vaxxer, if you believe in it you should take it every morning for breakfast if you like.
No conspiracy theories from me, purely arguing what is right and what is wrong.
If you believe I've been repeating consipracy theories what and where was that?
@no1marauder saidYou have not provided all of the data to prove it. Where is your data showing deaths caused by the gene vaccines? You reject VAERS data even though it is an underestimate.
What part of "I don't regard anti-vaxxers' characterisations of proven effective and safe vaccines that have saved millions of lives as "reasonable"" didn't you get?
I believe I've already stated that I have no intention of wasting further time "debating" anti-vaxxers' crank conspiracy theories - I spent two and a half years doing so and learned from experience that no ...[text shortened]... ew Zealand's largely successful measures to contain it were wise, reasonable public health measures.
You are omitting data you refuse to accept. You have to present data for anyone to dispute it.
@wajoma saidI'll tell you what; if you concede that the vaccines have saved tens of thousands of New Zealanders' lives, I'll concede that they, like any medical treatment, might cause severe reactions in a very small subset of those exposed to them.
Do you deny people have suffered harm from the clot shot?
Do you deny people have died from the clot shot?
Do you claim long term side effects are known when the constantly being revised juice has only been around 2 years?
Those aren't 'conspiracy theories' those are known facts.
I'm no anti-vaxxer, if you believe in it you should take it every morning for breakfast if ...[text shortened]... nd what is wrong.
If you believe I've been repeating consipracy theories what and where was that?
Deal?