Originally posted by shavixmirTsarist Russia carved out a big empire from the 17th to the 19th centuries, assimilating various peoples -- Kazakhs, Kirgiz -- making inroads into Ottoman territory, and so on. Peter the Great got the ball rolling.
That was the Soviet Union, not Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire
Originally posted by infomastA) No one claimed that the Russian citizenships were "forced" on the South Ossetians and I'm willing to concede that the Ossetians requested such status. That does not refute my point, however.
The citizenships were not forced down upon Ossetians - they asked for them. Russian peacekeepers were staying legally there, by agreement with both Georgians and Ossetians. Protection of soldiers and citizens from a real, not imagined, mortal danger may be enough grounds for intervention to restore the status quo. Murder of an ambassador, for example, was considered enough of a reason to start a war.
B) From 2006: "As anticipated, the Georgian parliament passed unanimously on 15 February by 179 votes a resolution demanding the withdrawal of the Russian peacekeeping force deployed in the South Ossetian conflict zone,"
http://eng.gateway.kg/news/cacis/202
So the Russian "peacekeepers" were on Georgian soil against the wishes of Georgia's elected government. If Russia wished to "protect" them, they should have been withdrawn. And Russia has no business meddling in the internal affairs of Georgia since it concedes that South Ossetia is still part of that nation.
C) Murder of an ambassador if it was ever considered sufficient justification for war, isn't any longer. It would fail the requirement of "proportionality".
Originally posted by Bosse de NageDid he?
Tsarist Russia carved out a big empire from the 17th to the 19th centuries, assimilating various peoples -- Kazakhs, Kirgiz -- making inroads into Ottoman territory, and so on. Peter the Great got the ball rolling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire
Oh well...
Originally posted by AThousandYoungThey also have lots of trouble living past 40, so if we put 1991 on the shot clock(the year the soviet union collapsed and the US became reigning hegemon) that should mean by 2031 get ready to speak Chinese.
Why do you think sumo wrestling exists? Because the big fat guys when it comes down to it can kick butt like no other.
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Originally posted by infomastI'm not completely sure, but weren't they offered dual citizenship?
The citizenships were not forced down upon Ossetians - they asked for them. Russian peacekeepers were staying legally there, by agreement with both Georgians and Ossetians. Protection of soldiers and citizens from a real, not imagined, mortal danger may be enough grounds for intervention to restore the status quo. Murder of an ambassador, for example, was considered enough of a reason to start a war.
Under the tension they were living in and with a Russian invasion looming, it's not surprising that so many took it. They had nothing to lose by accepting it, even if they didn't feel Russian at all.
Originally posted by PalynkaA minimal amount of googling will reveal ample reliable sources which indicate that the South Ossetians have been trying to secede from Georgia since the beginning of that country's most recent existence. Here's one:
I'm not completely sure, but weren't they offered dual citizenship?
Under the tension they were living in and with a Russian invasion looming, it's not surprising that so many took it. They had nothing to lose by accepting it, even if they didn't feel Russian at all.
In September 1990, the Ossetians declared sovereignty under the USSR and in return, the Georgian government dissolved its recognition of the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast. In January 1992, a referendum was held in Tskhinvali, the regional capital of South Ossetia, with a clear majority of the people supporting South Ossetia's seccession from Georgia and joining Russia. The South Ossetian Supreme Council made these desires official after voting in favor of secession from Georgia to Russia on November 19, 1992.
http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/ossetia.htm
Originally posted by no1marauderI know that. I'm talking about using the prevalence of Russian passports as a proxy for support for the recent military intervention.
A minimal amount of googling will reveal ample reliable sources which indicate that the South Ossetians have been trying to secede from Georgia since the beginning of that country's most recent existence. Here's one:
In September 1990, the Ossetians declared sovereignty under the USSR and in return, the Georgian government dissolved its recognition of ...[text shortened]... from Georgia to Russia on November 19, 1992.
http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/ossetia.htm
Originally posted by no1maraudera) One of the functions of any state is to protect its citizens. How else was it possible to accomplish at the time. Also, the scale of the Georgian attack with thousands non-military casualties and terror-stricken population is a factor. Additionally, Russia had previous long standing obligations to protect Ossetians.
A) No one claimed that the Russian citizenships were "forced" on the South Ossetians and I'm willing to concede that the Ossetians requested such status. That does not refute my point, however.
B) From 2006: "As anticipated, the Georgian parliament passed unanimously on 15 February by 179 votes a resolution demanding the withdrawal of the Russian peac ...[text shortened]... tion for war, isn't any longer. It would fail the requirement of "proportionality".
b) Georgian parliament's resolution alone does not nullify the mandate given to peacekeepers. Once agreed, the mandate is valid until expiration. Otherwise, one side can brush it aside for its own aims. There was a series of agreements in 92-94 to resolve the conflict by political means that were grossly violated by the Georgian side.
c) Proportionality of the response is not a well-defined area. Israel started the latest conflict in Lebanon based, in large part, on capture of one or a few Israeli soldiers.
Originally posted by PalynkaWhat was looming was the Georgian invasion, not Russian. Saakashvili made repeated promises to Georgian electorate to unify the country by the end of his presidency. Apparently, his plan was to overrun the Russian peacekeepers and Ossetian opposition and request the placement of international peacekeepers along the Georgian - Russian border allowing himself a free reign in Ossetia. Abkhazia, a larger region with similar circumstances, would've been the next target.
I'm not completely sure, but weren't they offered dual citizenship?
Under the tension they were living in and with a Russian invasion looming, it's not surprising that so many took it. They had nothing to lose by accepting it, even if they didn't feel Russian at all.
An excerpt from yesterday's Reuters article, which although mostly critical of Russia, contained at least some part of the Ossetians side:
One elderly resident told Reuters how she sheltered in a cellar with her 7-year-old grandson during the bombardment.
"My grandson screamed: 'Uncle Putin please help us, help us so that the Georgians don't kill me !'. They were screaming and crying it was terrible, a nightmare," she said.
"Thank God the Russians have come. It is getting better."
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who has taken a leading role in the crisis, attacked the United States for helping Georgia fly home troops from Iraq and said the West was mistaking the aggressors for victims in the conflict -- a reference to strong Western support for Georgia.
Putin mocked the support given by the West to Saakashvili, comparing him to former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, who was hanged in 2006 for executing Shiites.
"They (the Americans) of course had to hang Saddam Hussein for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said.
"But the current Georgian rulers who in one hour simply wiped 10 Ossetian villages from the face of the earth, the Georgian rulers which used tanks to run over children and the elderly, which threw civilians into cellars and burnt them -- they (Georgian leaders) are players that have to be protected."
Originally posted by infomastSouth Ossetia was considered a part of Georgia by the UN, so it's ridiculous to argue that a Georgian "invasion" was looming.
What was looming was the Georgian invasion, not Russian. Saakashvili made repeated promises to Georgian electorate to unify the country by the end of his presidency. Apparently, his plan was to overrun the Russian peacekeepers and Ossetian opposition and request the placement of international peacekeepers along the Georgian - Russian border allowing himself ...[text shortened]... n Ossetia. Abkhazia, a larger region with similar circumstances, would've been the next target.
If there was indeed ethnic cleansing going on and Russia was indeed motivated by this, then how do you explain that they're not trying to push the UN into sending peace-keepers now that they have control over the region? They have not yet proposed anything of the sort, which sends a clear message about that their motivations go beyond that.
Originally posted by PalynkaBeautifuly put, as always, P.
South Ossetia was considered a part of Georgia by the UN, so it's ridiculous to argue that a Georgian "invasion" was looming.
If there was indeed ethnic cleansing going on and Russia was indeed motivated by this, then how do you explain that they're not trying to push the UN into sending peace-keepers now that they have control over the region? They have ...[text shortened]... ything of the sort, which sends a clear message about that their motivations go beyond that.
Let the Putin puppet propaganda poster keep on copy-pasting the Russian foreign ministry's 'communicadoes'.
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Originally posted by kmax87Life expectancy in the US is 78 years, sorry! Sumo have a life expectancy of over 60 years.
They also have lots of trouble living past 40, so if we put 1991 on the shot clock(the year the soviet union collapsed and the US became reigning hegemon) that should mean by 2031 get ready to speak Chinese.
Originally posted by PalynkaFine. Call it "a triumphant march of democracy" with regrettable collateral damage of 2000 bodies if you'd like.
South Ossetia was considered a part of Georgia by the UN, so it's ridiculous to argue that a Georgian "invasion" was looming.
If there was indeed ethnic cleansing going on and Russia was indeed motivated by this, then how do you explain that they're not trying to push the UN into sending peace-keepers now that they have control over the region? They have ...[text shortened]... ything of the sort, which sends a clear message about that their motivations go beyond that.