@AThousandYoung saidI think it mirrors, though, a local non-native population creating a state of separation and ethnic prioritization that results in injustice.
South Africa is an example where white colonizers have been replaced by Black colonizers and the indigenous Khoisan get screwed by both sides. It's nothing like Israel.
@Philokalia saidHow was it the wrong thing to give Palestine back to the Jews since it was their homeland before the Arabs.
Yes, it was the wrong thing to do. Hindsight teaches us that.
@Philokalia saidWhich international community? Israel has ignored the UN, ICJ, and all other nations calling for the war in Gaza to end. How can you conclude that there is any international community capable of forcing Israel to do anything.
But they would not have a choice in this matter.
... And, as it stands, they will not have a choice. The international community is eventually going to sanction and divest from them and make it untenable for them to fulfill their long-term political ambitions unless they progressively cede land to the Palestinians.
I think the who9le process will even result in the ...[text shortened]... al dissolution of Israel by peaceful, diplomatic pressure, not unlike what happened to South Africa.
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@Philokalia said1) Who are you to veto whether someone is a Jew or Hebrew? Nationalists do not care about whether outsiders approve or acknowledge their ancestry.
It becomes dubious when someone claims that they have the right to the land because they are a real descendent of the people who lived there 2k years ago, but they've then been gone for so long.
It's likely ...[text shortened]... Spades.
And... it's the Palestinians who have that genetic legacy, not the Iraqis or Egyptians.
Well, we call them 'Englishmen' today, not Angles & Saxons.
That's because the Angles, Saxons and Jutes live in Anglia, Saxony and Jutland.
But can we say that the modern Italian... is a Roman in the classical sense?
Yes, we can. So are the French, Spanish, Portuguese and Romanians. This is why we say they speak Romance languages that evolved from Latin. This is also why we refer to Latinos in Latin America. It's also why all of the above have a two millenia long cultural relationship with the Roman Catholic Church.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Union
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@Philokalia saidThe Jewish population in Israel is native in both the literal and cultural sense.
I think it mirrors, though, a local non-native population creating a state of separation and ethnic prioritization that results in injustice.
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@Philokalia saidNo, an Anglo-American colonial state would be full of English speaking Protestants. For example the 13 Colonies in North America, or Australia, or the ruling class of India during Victoria's reign. Maybe even Liberia would be a pseudo-example.
Who am I to tell them what they need?
I am an American citizen - I bankroll Israel. The Americans and Britains invented the state of Israel. It's a colonial apartheid state we set up.
I think I get to dictate to them whatever I want. They're there because of a combination of local Jewish lobby groups and the will of the British & American voters.
We've seen this ...[text shortened]... aybe not quite a majority of us now, but a significant amount of us who will be tomorrow's majority.
I don't think you understand how colonialism works.
Your idea of Israel as a weak, dependent extension of the USA is way off base. You don't understand Israel at all.
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@Philokalia saidGaza is not Israel.
It's noteworthy that, while debated, there's now roughly equal amounts of Palestinians and Jews in the totality of the Gaza, West Bank, and green-line Israel areas.
The difference, though, is that the Israeli Jews are comprised of various ethnic groups that are non-native and they all showed up in the late 19th and 20th century. In fact, the majority of them came in the 20th century.
I'm glad to see you stopped talking about Arabs in this context.
The difference, though, is that the Israeli Jews are comprised of various ethnic groups that are non-native
No they aren't. You and the Arab World can keep telling yourself that but you'll keep being surprised when Israel doesn't fold when challenged.
You are referring to people born in Israel as having "shown up" in the 19th century! There's nobody alive who did anything in the 19th century.
@Rajk999 saidHundreds of examples of colonial cruelty doesn't make them all right or tolerable. They are all wrong and deserve condemnation, and so does the fiasco the British imposed over the Palestinians.
Over the last thousand years, there are literally hundreds of examples of colonial powers taking over countries, and doing whatever they pleased... killing off the indigenous population, stealing resources, enslaving people, and dividing lands and sharing it to others. Palestine is just one of many, and I aint losing any sleep over the Palestinian cause, neither am I going t ...[text shortened]... in those days. Its over and done with. The fools who cannot move on are doomed. Sorry for them.
If someone said that there are still hundreds of murders and rapes and kidnappings happening even today, so the Jews should just forget Oct 2023 and move on, would your agree? You won't, and shouldn't either.
And that's the difference between an objective assessment of an issue, versus what you are doing which is ignoring the injustice on one side just because you hate one grp of people.
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@Philokalia saidChatGPT lies. It is not a reliable source. Haven't you heard of the lawyers who got in trouble for using AI and then the judge realized that it made up fake court cases to reference?
I asked Chat GPT this:What groups of people today have the greatest genetic similarity to second temple Hebrew people that lived in the land of Palestine?
Chat GPT responded by giving a list of the closest Jewish peoples to the second temple Hebrews, and then the closest related non-Jewish people... I asked Chat GPT to abandon it, and here is the resu ...[text shortened]... out:
https://chatgpt.com/c/68b10a9a-84a4-8324-8393-6b7ee463382e
What do you think about that?
I used ChatGPT the other night to try to find some details of the lore of one of my favorite podcasts and the thing gave me different inconsistent false responses to the same prompt 3 times in a row.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/new-york-lawyers-sanctioned-using-fake-chatgpt-cases-legal-brief-2023-06-22/
The judge found the lawyers acted in bad faith and made "acts of conscious avoidance and false and misleading statements to the court."
@Rajk999 saidB ecause there isn't real pressure on Israel yet.
Which international community? Israel has ignored the UN, ICJ, and all other nations calling for the war in Gaza to end. How can you conclude that there is any international community capable of forcing Israel to do anything.
Aid is dangled before Egypt and various other states forcing them to play nice, and the European community is just following the lead of the United States until recently where we have some real divergence. Even Canada is going to recognize the Palestinian state.
The big thing, though, is exactly what Jonathan Greenblatt was caugh ranting about in phone calls - younger Americans, including conservatives, are not interested in supporting ISrael anymore.
The baby boomer vote is proportionately less & less important. There is no way for the foreign agents of AIPAC and Israel to really dig themselves out of this because it is definitely the case that American liberals will no longer tolerate Democrats that support Israel, and the conservatives will increasingly shrug their shoulders and even be happy when they elect representatives not invested in the Israel narrative.
The process is beginning for real now.
It will move slowly but surely since this very thread illustrates how even the greatest defenders of Israel are incapable of slapping together a compelling narrative.
@AThousandYoung saidSo your response to this is to argue, sincerely, that the Romans are still alive, and the Angles and Saxons are still alive...Well, we call them 'Englishmen' today, not Angles & Saxons.
That's because the Angles, Saxons and Jutes live in Anglia, Saxony and Jutland.But can we say that the modern Italian... is a Roman in the classical sense?
Yes, we can. So are the French, Spanish, Portuguese and Romanians. This is why we say they speak [ ...[text shortened]... ranos - Where are the Romans now?]_D34avb0ZP8[/youtube]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Union
And the solution to my logic is the tenuous linguistic connection between the modern residents of Sachsen, Germany and Saxony and things like that?
I am not convinced you believe your own argument.
@AThousandYoung saidIsrael requires the US to be able to have the Iron Dome. Israel requires us to bankroll them.
No, an Anglo-American colonial state would be full of English speaking Protestants. For example the 13 Colonies in North America, or Australia, or the ruling class of India during Victoria's reign. Maybe even Liberia would be a pseudo-example.
I don't think you understand how colonialism works.
Your idea of Israel as a weak, dependent extension of the USA is way off base. You don't understand Israel at all.
We manufacture the bulk of what the Israelis use.
Our aid to Egypt and Jordan keep them on a short leash; we also keep the Turks on a short leash.
We stopped the Iranians from obliterating Tel Aviv.
None of this works without the USA, and so the USA gets to stop the Zionist project if it wants.
Or we can just appeal to the logic of Rajk: whoever has the power determines what is right and what happens and there is no moral dimension to any of this..!
@Philokalia saidYour solution seems to be the Romans disappeared and some other group of people took their place while inheriting Roman culture and phenotypes.
So your response to this is to argue, sincerely, that the Romans are still alive, and the Angles and Saxons are still alive...
And the solution to my logic is the tenuous linguistic connection between the modern residents of Sachsen, Germany and Saxony and things like that?
I am not convinced you believe your own argument.
When did the Romans stop being Roman in your opinion?
@AThousandYoung saidThey are the children of settlers who showed up from places like Russia and Poland and even places like Brooklyn.
Gaza is not Israel.
I'm glad to see you stopped talking about Arabs in this context.The difference, though, is that the Israeli Jews are comprised of various ethnic groups that are non-native
No they aren't. You and the Arab World can keep telling yourself that but you'll keep being surprised when Israel doesn't fold when challenged.
You ...[text shortened]... as having "shown up" in the 19th century! There's nobody alive who did anything in the 19th century.
They are not local to Palestine in the same way that Palestinians are.
They are colonists.
@AThousandYoung saidIt is worth considering, as well, that the Roman people were experiencing a sort of change to ther ethnicity in the period between the Republic and the late empire.
Your solution seems to be the Romans disappeared and some other group of people took their place while inheriting Roman culture and phenotypes.
When did the Romans stop being Roman in your opinion?
So, we could argue a variety of things as to when these people began to disappear.
Certainly the fall of the Western Roman Empire is relevant to understanding this, though of course it would be crude to suggest that the culture and legacy of Rome wouldn't live on without it for some generations.
IDK, let me spend 10 years studying this and I will get back to you with an exact date.