@Rajk999 saidYes, it was the wrong thing to do. Hindsight teaches us that.
Are you suggesting that it was immoral for the British and the UN to partition Palestine? It was the right thing to do.
@Rajk999 saidBut they would not have a choice in this matter.
The Jews will not allow Islam to take control of Palestine.
... And, as it stands, they will not have a choice. The international community is eventually going to sanction and divest from them and make it untenable for them to fulfill their long-term political ambitions unless they progressively cede land to the Palestinians.
I think the who9le process will even result in the eventual dissolution of Israel by peaceful, diplomatic pressure, not unlike what happened to South Africa.
@Philokalia saidLong post! Let's start with your I.
I. The big issue is that the Jews of the 21st century were not the Hebrews that were ethnically cleansed by the Romans. It is even the case that many of the Jews of the world at that period were living in Rome and in North Africa. They had large communities in North Africa since the Baylonian Captivity.
It is hard to say that a bunch of visibly white Europeans are the ...[text shortened]... irony of me being someone thought of as some sort of reactionary conservative saying these things.)
I. The big issue is that the Jews of the 21st century were not the Hebrews that were ethnically cleansed by the Romans. It is even the case that many of the Jews of the world at that period were living in Rome and in North Africa. They had large communities in North Africa since the Baylonian Captivity.
Interesting comment. There's a lot to unpack in there - assumptions and implications.
I could respond to that in many ways. Here are a few.
1) Who are you to veto whether someone is a Jew or Hebrew? Nationalists do not care about whether outsiders approve or acknowledge their ancestry.
2) It's been 77 years since Israel was re-founded. The Palestinians of today are not the same people who were displaced at that time just as today's Jews are not the same people who were displaced.
3) If you are suggesting that Israelis are "fake Jews" then that is incredibly presumptuous and insulting. This goes double if you think today's Palestinians are "real Palestinians".
4) Arabs have been living in a huge diaspora that has long reached from Morocco to Iraq at the very least. Does this invalidate the interests of the Arabs in Palestine? If not why does the Jewish diaspora invalidate the interests of Jews in Israel?
5) The fact that modern Ashkenazi are part white does not mean they are not Jews. You think today's Palestinians are pure-blooded Sea People? You think today's Arabs are pure blooded Semites? No. Arabs have thoroughly mixed with the other people of Africa and Asia.
In summary, your statement that comes after I. is nonsense.
@Philokalia said
I. The big issue is that the Jews of the 21st century were not the Hebrews that were ethnically cleansed by the Romans. It is even the case that many of the Jews of the world at that period were living in Rome and in North Africa. They had large communities in North Africa since the Baylonian Captivity.
It is hard to say that a bunch of visibly white Europeans are the ...[text shortened]... irony of me being someone thought of as some sort of reactionary conservative saying these things.)
It is hard to say that a bunch of visibly white Europeans are the rightful possessors of Palestine because they are partially descended from the Hebrews who were once there, while the Palestinians who are there and are more closely genetically related to the historic Hebrews do not have a right to it.
Levantine ancestry is not the same as Jewish ancestry. I suspect you misinterpreted your sources. In any case ethnicity is not fully defined by ancestry. It's primarily based on self-identification and culture (including religion and language). Arab Palestinians show absolutely no evidence of Jewish culture and they show no interest in identifying as Jews.
1 edit
@Philokalia said
I. The big issue is that the Jews of the 21st century were not the Hebrews that were ethnically cleansed by the Romans. It is even the case that many of the Jews of the world at that period were living in Rome and in North Africa. They had large communities in North Africa since the Baylonian Captivity.
It is hard to say that a bunch of visibly white Europeans are the ...[text shortened]... irony of me being someone thought of as some sort of reactionary conservative saying these things.)
Armenia does have its own nation now.
So does Arabia.
@Philokalia said
I. SUre, OK. There just isn't a valid movement for this kind of thing because there are no more people who really have a claim to be pre-Roman Celts. I am sure some such people may exist in the marshlands of Wales or something, but this is ancient history. Not 20th century stuff.
II. Oh yes, of course. THe end of Israel as a zionist regime existing under the laws it cu ...[text shortened]... ay to achieve some semblance of moving past this is decades of peace and friendship between peoples.
III. "Jews get to control all of Palestine because these old Palestinians that remember those times will just die, and their claims will die with them..."
"Arabs get to control all of North Africa and Southwest Asia because the Jews (and Egyptians, Amazigh, Moors, Assyrians etc) that remembered those times died, and their claims died with them..."
@Philokalia said
I. The big issue is that the Jews of the 21st century were not the Hebrews that were ethnically cleansed by the Romans. It is even the case that many of the Jews of the world at that period were living in Rome and in North Africa. They had large communities in North Africa since the Baylonian Captivity.
It is hard to say that a bunch of visibly white Europeans are the ...[text shortened]... irony of me being someone thought of as some sort of reactionary conservative saying these things.)
The Palestinians, on the other hand, are still the majority occupants of their lands and deserve their rights
Which are "their lands"?
They aren't the majority occupants of Israel.
The Jews and Arabs maybe need to have a single state that focuses just on serving them their basic rights. There needs to be a sense of [i]moving beyond ethnic and religious identity and moving towards a sense of the individual who is concerned chiefly with his own rights and the love of his neighbor.
Who are you to tell them what they need? The future you envision flies in the face of modern history where ethnic nation-states have come to dominate the globe.
1 edit
@Philokalia said
I. The big issue is that the Jews of the 21st century were not the Hebrews that were ethnically cleansed by the Romans. It is even the case that many of the Jews of the world at that period were living in Rome and in North Africa. They had large communities in North Africa since the Baylonian Captivity.
It is hard to say that a bunch of visibly white Europeans are the ...[text shortened]... irony of me being someone thought of as some sort of reactionary conservative saying these things.)
III. If you support Gaza and West Bank being their own state that exists alongside Israel, I support that, too... I want the violence to end, and I also think that the full displacement of Jews is not just unethical but undesirable. But there is somethign else to be said about all this...
I do not support Gaza and West Bank being their own state. I support Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon and the surrounding area being it's own state that exists alongside Israel, with Israel taking the "West Bank" AKA the province that Jews are named after, Judah. The map should look approximately like it did in King David's time, about 1000 BCE:
https://www.conformingtojesus.com/images/webpages/ancient_israel_&_neighboring_nations_&_cities.jpg
@Philokalia saidSouth Africa is an example where white colonizers have been replaced by Black colonizers and the indigenous Khoisan get screwed by both sides. It's nothing like Israel.
But they would not have a choice in this matter.
... And, as it stands, they will not have a choice. The international community is eventually going to sanction and divest from them and make it untenable for them to fulfill their long-term political ambitions unless they progressively cede land to the Palestinians.
I think the who9le process will even result in the ...[text shortened]... al dissolution of Israel by peaceful, diplomatic pressure, not unlike what happened to South Africa.
@AThousandYoung said
Long post! Let's start with your I.I. The big issue is that the Jews of the 21st century were not the Hebrews that were ethnically cleansed by the Romans. It is even the case that many of the Jews of the world at that period were living in Rome and in North Africa. They had large communities in North Africa since the Baylonian Captivity.
Interesti ...[text shortened]... the other people of Africa and Asia.
In summary, your statement that comes after I. is nonsense.
1) Who are you to veto whether someone is a Jew or Hebrew? Nationalists do not care about whether outsiders approve or acknowledge their ancestry.
It becomes dubious when someone claims that they have the right to the land because they are a real descendent of the people who lived there 2k years ago, but they've then been gone for so long.
It's likely every modern Jewish person who hasn't been adopted has some amount of ancient Hebrew blood. But this is doubly true for the Palestinians, and it is also the case that the average Greek or Italian is more genetically linkable to near eastern blood in general than the Ashkenazi Jews.
Distant genetic relations and ancestry cannot really give someone a right to the land of Palestine, IMO. But if we were to even use that as a measure, the Jews would not beat the local Palestinians in terms of lineal descent from the original inhabitants. I find that relevant.
2) It's been 77 years since Israel was re-founded. The Palestinians of today are not the same people who were displaced at that time just as today's Jews are not the same people who were displaced.
True... Though some small amount of them were likely there 77 years ago. There are Palestinians above the age of 77. However, yes, most of them are the second, third, or even fourth generation of the people who were there 77 years ago.
Now, do how many generations it has been for the Jews who were ethnically cleaned 1800+ years ago.
3) If you are suggesting that Israelis are "fake Jews" then that is incredibly presumptuous and insulting. This goes double if you think today's Palestinians are "real Palestinians".
The Torah Only Jews say that the only real Jews are religious Jews. Most Jews think of themselves as an ethnocultural group with a religion attached to it, and Jews who are atheists or Buddhists are still Jews. Some more hardline people will say, though, that a Jew who is baptized and is a believing Christian has relinquished their claims to Judaism - there have been legal cases concerning this in Israel and that has been the conclusion.
Jews debate over who is a Jew - and rightfully so. It's not just something with legal ramifications, but also a very interesting discussion, IMO. Why wouldn't you.
As for me..?
I accept that the Jews today are real, authentic Jews. I simply say that they are now a distinct people from their Hebrew ancestors.
My precedent for this is..?
Well, we call them 'Englishmen' today, not Angles & Saxons. Nobody would be able to distinguish between the two, and none of the pure ethnic English today are descended only from the Angles or only from the Saxons. The Angles & Saxons have ceased to exist though their descendants live on.
This is the same of for the ethnic Hebrews that once existed. They just don't exist anymore.
But their descendents certainly do. In a poetic sense, you can say that modern Jews are Hebrews. They are heirs to this legacy to some degree, certainly, as Jews... But can we say that the modern Italian... is a Roman in the classical sense? No. Legalistically, culturall, ethnically, etc., there just aren't living Romans either.
And the genetics is relevant because the claim that the Jews have this exclsuive access to the HEbrew legacy is inaccurate, I believe.
Let me also say... There are no fake Jews to me, other than some obvioius case of someone lying about their heritage and the religion they practice to assume a fake identity. I would treat a convert to Judaism as a real Jew, a Jewish atheist of Jewish descent as a Jew, and I would even say that a convert to Christianity who still wants to be identified as a Jewish person is also a Jew, right, but if they said, "I no l onger am, even though I have that ethnic background, because I have been somehow cut off," I would also respect that...
I let Jews determine who are Jews, and since Jews do not agree... I also believe the definition of a Jew can be quite variable, right.
4) Arabs have been living in a huge diaspora that has long reached from Morocco to Iraq at the very least. Does this invalidate the interests of the Arabs in Palestine? If not why does the Jewish diaspora invalidate the interests of Jews in Israel?
An Arab... What is an Arab? I think, again, you are right... It is an identity not unlike Hispanic.
I think you will also find north Africans from the same family and one will say "Oh no, I am not Arab at all. I am a Berber," and the other one will say, "But we Berbers are Arabs..! How can you deny this..?!" So that's also fascinating.
But let me say this...
I donot believe Moroccans, Yemenis, Syrians, etc., have any rightful claim to Palestine. Only Palestinians do.
And these groups re all distinct.
(5) Yes, I gree. But ti does mean something to your claim about having a right to the land because you are descended from Hebrews if the people living there today have that same genetic claim in Spades.
And... it's the Palestinians who have that genetic legacy, not the Iraqis or Egyptians.
@AThousandYoung saidI asked Chat GPT this:It is hard to say that a bunch of visibly white Europeans are the rightful possessors of Palestine because they are partially descended from the Hebrews who were once there, while the Palestinians who are there and are more closely genetically related to the historic Hebrews do not have a right to it.
Levantine ancestry is not the same as Jewish ances ...[text shortened]... ians show absolutely no evidence of Jewish culture and they show no interest in identifying as Jews.
What groups of people today have the greatest genetic similarity to second temple Hebrew people that lived in the land of Palestine?
Chat GPT responded by giving a list of the closest Jewish peoples to the second temple Hebrews, and then the closest related non-Jewish people... I asked Chat GPT to abandon it, and here is the result:
Here’s what the ancient DNA studies (especially from the Iron Age and Second Temple period burials in Israel/Palestine, like those published in Cell and Nature between 2017–2022) show when comparing modern populations to those ancient Judeans:
Populations most genetically similar to Second Temple Judeans (in order of closeness, approximate):
1. Palestinians – carry very high continuity with ancient Judeans, despite later admixture from Arabs and others.
2. Bedouins of the southern Levant – close relatives with strong local continuity.
3. Druze (Lebanon, Israel, Syria) – noted for preserving an older Levantine genetic profile with less external mixing.
4. Mizrahi Jews (Iraqi, Iranian, Yemeni, etc.) – strong Levantine ancestry with some diaspora-specific admixture.
5. Sephardi Jews (e.g., from North Africa, Iberia, Turkey) – also closely aligned, slightly more admixture from Mediterranean populations.
6. Lebanese (esp. certain Christian and Druze groups) – retain much of the ancient Levantine genetic signature.
7. Ashkenazi Jews – still clearly Levantine in origin, but shifted a bit toward southern Europe due to diaspora admixture.
8. Syrians – generally close, though with more admixture from later Arab and other groups.
Check it out:
https://chatgpt.com/c/68b10a9a-84a4-8324-8393-6b7ee463382e
What do you think about that?
@AThousandYoung saidIraqis, Syrians, Jordanians, etc., do, but not Palestinians.Armenia does have its own nation now.
So does Arabia.
@AThousandYoung saidThe argument is just that there is not a real continuation between them that can validate the claim.III. "Jews get to control all of Palestine because these old Palestinians that remember those times will just die, and their claims will die with them..."
"Arabs get to control all of North Africa and Southwest Asia because the Jews (and Egyptians, Amazigh, Moors, Assyrians etc) that remembered those times died, and their claims died with them..."
@AThousandYoung saidIt's noteworthy that, while debated, there's now roughly equal amounts of Palestinians and Jews in the totality of the Gaza, West Bank, and green-line Israel areas.The Palestinians, on the other hand, are still the majority occupants of their lands and deserve their rights
Which are "their lands"?
They aren't the majority occupants of Israel.
[quote]The Jews and Arabs maybe need to have a single state that focuses just on serving them their basic rights. There needs to be a sense of [i]moving beyond ethn ...[text shortened]... sion flies in the face of modern history where ethnic nation-states have come to dominate the globe.
The difference, though, is that the Israeli Jews are comprised of various ethnic groups that are non-native and they all showed up in the late 19th and 20th century. In fact, the majority of them came in the 20th century.
@AThousandYoung saidWho am I to tell them what they need?The Palestinians, on the other hand, are still the majority occupants of their lands and deserve their rights
Which are "their lands"?
They aren't the majority occupants of Israel.
[quote]The Jews and Arabs maybe need to have a single state that focuses just on serving them their basic rights. There needs to be a sense of [i]moving beyond ethn ...[text shortened]... sion flies in the face of modern history where ethnic nation-states have come to dominate the globe.
I am an American citizen - I bankroll Israel. The Americans and Britains invented the state of Israel. It's a colonial apartheid state we set up.
I think I get to dictate to them whatever I want. They're there because of a combination of local Jewish lobby groups and the will of the British & American voters.
We've seen this play out long enough, I think, and we want to end the violent Zionist experiment. Maybe not quite a majority of us now, but a significant amount of us who will be tomorrow's majority.