@Rajk999 saidLet's try to break this down again...
You are ignoring the facts of the case, and using dramatic language hoping it will strengthen your point.
The Ottoman Empire owned Palestine up to 1915.
The British Empire owned Palestine from 1915 to 1948.
The British Empire with the full agreement of the UN aka the world, partitioned Palestine and gave the two warring parties roughly half of Palestine each,
The Jews a ...[text shortened]... under Israel and remain a failed subdued nation.
They made poor decisions over the last 75 years.
Is there a moral dimension to "ownership?"
@Philokalia saidThe word 'Arab' is much more similar to the word 'Hispanic' - an outside colonizing imperialist people who dominate and transform the cultures of the conquered peoples.
The word 'Arab' is similar to the word 'European.' There are Arabs of many stripes, and they are genetically distinct from one another. The language of Arabic is also just a language family. There's a few continuums upon which they all speak that are quite unrelated.
For instance, all the Maghrebi Arabic languages are distinct from even the Egyptian Arabic (Masri), and ...[text shortened]... ic language and have an influence from surrounding Arab population, just like the Jews used to have.
North Africa is to Arabs what South America is to Spaniards.
'European' is more closely analogous to 'South Asian'. This includes various Semites, Aryans, Indian etc cultures just as Europe contains Germanics, Greeks etc.
There are five languages in Europe - Germanic, Latin, Slavic, Finnic, and Basque," or something like this.
Yes, that's an accurate description of Europe more or less.
@Philokalia said1. The Anglo-Saxon displacement of the indigenous Romano-British people during the Dark Ages which inspired the King Arthur legends
I. What displacement in Britain?
II. I am an Orthodox Christian and would have loved to have seen Istanbul returned to Orthodoxy. This is still relevant to some people, but it seems so improbable as to be silly.
III. Israel, of course, is a remarkably young country, and there are many people alive who all have valid claims to that land.
I will see what you have to say in the next message before I dive into some other narrative on this.
.I am an Orthodox Christian and would have loved to have seen Istanbul returned to Orthodoxy. This is still relevant to some people, but it seems so improbable as to be silly.
II. You think the end of Israel is more probable than the end of Turkey?
III. That problem will solve itself within a few decades as those people die of old age.
@AThousandYoung saidI. SUre, OK. There just isn't a valid movement for this kind of thing because there are no more people who really have a claim to be pre-Roman Celts. I am sure some such people may exist in the marshlands of Wales or something, but this is ancient history. Not 20th century stuff.
1. The Anglo-Saxon displacement of the indigenous Romano-British people during the Dark Ages which inspired the King Arthur legends
[youtube King Arthur clip]o9kVyJQQHxg[/youtube]
[quote].I am an Orthodox Christian and would have loved to have seen Istanbul returned to Orthodoxy. This is still relevant to some people, but it seems so improbable as to be silly. [ ...[text shortened]... Turkey?
III. That problem will solve itself within a few decades as those people die of old age.
II. Oh yes, of course. THe end of Israel as a zionist regime existing under the laws it currently exists under seems even likely, IMO.
III. "Jews get to control all of Palestine because these old Palestinians that remember those times will just die, and their claims will die with them..."
What a statement to make when there are tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, who are dying in Gaza this year.
Every time the murderous Zionists kill more people, it completely refreshes anything that should work to normalize the affairs and relinquish the claims of the Palestinians.
The only way to achieve some semblance of moving past this is decades of peace and friendship between peoples.
@AThousandYoung saidThere are some interesting agreements here, then, lol.
The word 'Arab' is much more similar to the word 'Hispanic' - an outside colonizing imperialist people who dominate and transform the cultures of the conquered peoples.
North Africa is to Arabs what South America is to Spaniards.
'European' is more closely analogous to 'South Asian'. This includes various Semites, Aryans, Indian etc cultures just as Europe conta ...[text shortened]... ue," or something like this.[/quote]
Yes, that's an accurate description of Europe more or less.
I did not expect this.
I am sure we disagree on some of the details here, and that's fine, but... I suppose we will let the post above this one do all the talking concerning the Palestien conflict. I'll just enjoy this exchange, ATY.
@Philokalia saidI see your implied statute of limitations conveniently dismisses how the Jews were ethnically cleansed from the region. We can ignore that one because it's "ancient history". But the 20th century is sacred.
I. SUre, OK. There just isn't a valid movement for this kind of thing because there are no more people who really have a claim to be pre-Roman Celts. I am sure some such people may exist in the marshlands of Wales or something, but this is ancient history. Not 20th century stuff.
II. Oh yes, of course. THe end of Israel as a zionist regime existing under the laws it cu ...[text shortened]... ay to achieve some semblance of moving past this is decades of peace and friendship between peoples.
Except the Palestinians matter more to you than the Armenians and Kurds for some reason.
II. I am fascinated to hear how you expect Israel to end. If the Turks ever piss off NATO they're going to find themselves invaded by Russia. I think the Russians are far more capable of liberating Constantinople and Armenia than the Arabs are of getting rid of Israel.
III. Gaza is not Israel and I do not support the Israeli offensive in that city.
In February 2023, while Turkey was still recovering from a devastating earthquake, Russian State Duma Member Semyon Bagdasarov issued a call to attack Turkey and annex Istanbul:
...
"We will erect a cross over the Church of Hagia Sophia and reveal frescoes that are now hidden from people. And we’ll put on music—a prayer in Aramaic or perhaps in Russian.”
@Philokalia saidThe Jews will not allow Islam to take control of Palestine.
That would not be allowed...?
Who is not allowing it?
Are you saying that HASHEM would not allow this? Are you giving us religious proclamations at this point, and introducing them into an ethical debate about Israel?
@sameeh saidI dislike Islam so I would have sided with the British giving the Jews a homeland in Palestine.
Please.. let's not trivialise this as a secret real estate deal closed between powerful friends behind closed doors. There was a clear rationale publicized and discussed in public then, that the Jews deserved Israel due to their ancestral connections, and their right to exist as a nation. Agree?
My question to you is, had you been a British citizen at that time, what would ...[text shortened]... sure. So please, humor me, and transport yourself to early 20th century and tell me what you think.
@Philokalia saidAre you suggesting that it was immoral for the British and the UN to partition Palestine? It was the right thing to do.
Let's try to break this down again...
Is there a moral dimension to "ownership?"
@Rajk999 saidThat's nice to know ☺️
I dislike Islam so I would have sided with the British giving the Jews a homeland in Palestine.
A few posts ago, you had advised me against letting my emotions blind me on the right and wrong of the matter. It's quite clear now why YOU have taken this position.
Anyway, coming back to my argument... The publicly given rationale by Zionists, and then backed by the British government, was that the Jews deserved a nation, and Palestine was the logical place because of their "historical" connection to the place. I am sure you won't refute this point.
In which case, your argument that nobody cared for nationalist feelings before 1960 is void. Britain did care for the Jewish nationalistic feeling, and they plotted to achieve this by undermining a similar nationalistic feeling of the Palestinians. That's precisely where the logic of the whole thing goes wrong. Morally too.
@sameeh saidEmotion? How did you arrive at this conclusion that I am emotional. My dislike for Islam has to do with the content of the Quran and in the behaviour of extremist Muslims. I have given multitude of examples of this right here over the last few years. Many countries do not like Islam. China in particular hates Islam and justifiably so. They refer to Islam as a mental disorder.
That's nice to know ☺️
A few posts ago, you had advised me against letting my emotions blind me on the right and wrong of the matter. It's quite clear now why YOU have taken this position.
Anyway, coming back to my argument... The publicly given rationale by Zionists, and then backed by the British government, was that the Jews deserved a nation, and Palestine was the lo ...[text shortened]... ng of the Palestinians. That's precisely where the logic of the whole thing goes wrong. Morally too.
Why people do things or do not do it is not my place to refute.
Never did I say people did not care for nationalist feelings. I know they do. It is the colonial powers that did not care for nationalist feelings. The world agreed that self-determination would replace colonialism during the 20th century.
Im still not in agreement with much of your points.
@Rajk999 saidI didn't say your dislike for islam is emotional. I said your thoughts on the Jewish problem have been influenced by your hate towards islam, as you yourself admitted.. which obviously is not an objective way of looking at the issue.
Emotion? How did you arrive at this conclusion that I am emotional. My dislike for Islam has to do with the content of the Quran and in the behaviour of extremist Muslims. I have given multitude of examples of this right here over the last few years. Many countries do not like Islam. China in particular hates Islam and justifiably so. They refer to Islam as a mental disor ...[text shortened]... replace colonialism during the 20th century.
Im still not in agreement with much of your points.
As for your argument on the importance of nationalist feelings.. it's kinda ludicrous that on one hand you attribute the balfour declaration as a colonial decision and hence beyond the assessment of right or wrong by today's standards, but in the same breath insist that the partition in 1948 (which is based on nothing else but jewish claims of their rightful inheritance) is the right decision.
At the very least, you should agree that the partition too was a decision which by today's standards is immoral and illegal
@sameeh saidOver the last thousand years, there are literally hundreds of examples of colonial powers taking over countries, and doing whatever they pleased... killing off the indigenous population, stealing resources, enslaving people, and dividing lands and sharing it to others. Palestine is just one of many, and I aint losing any sleep over the Palestinian cause, neither am I going to condemn the nations that did these things. That was life in those days. Its over and done with. The fools who cannot move on are doomed. Sorry for them.
I didn't say your dislike for islam is emotional. I said your thoughts on the Jewish problem have been influenced by your hate towards islam, as you yourself admitted.. which obviously is not an objective way of looking at the issue.
As for your argument on the importance of nationalist feelings.. it's kinda ludicrous that on one hand you attribute the balfour declaration a ...[text shortened]... should agree that the partition too was a decision which by today's standards is immoral and illegal
@AThousandYoung saidI. The big issue is that the Jews of the 21st century were not the Hebrews that were ethnically cleansed by the Romans. It is even the case that many of the Jews of the world at that period were living in Rome and in North Africa. They had large communities in North Africa since the Baylonian Captivity.
I see your implied statute of limitations conveniently dismisses how the Jews were ethnically cleansed from the region. We can ignore that one because it's "ancient history". But the 20th century is sacred.
Except the Palestinians matter more to you than the Armenians and Kurds for some reason.
II. I am fascinated to hear how you expect Israel to end. If the T ...[text shortened]... rid of Israel.
III. Gaza is not Israel and I do not support the Israeli offensive in that city.
It is hard to say that a bunch of visibly white Europeans are the rightful possessors of Palestine because they are partially descended from the Hebrews who were once there, while the Palestinians who are there and are more closely genetically related to the historic Hebrews do not have a right to it.
IIa. Armenia does have its own nation now.
IIb. The Kurds have an autonomous region in northern Iraq. As far as separatism goes... I don't know what to say about the Kurds of Turkey, Iran, and Syria. This is absolutely a complicated affair.
Did you know that the Kurds of Iran have even been internally displaced, historically..?
The Kurds of Iran had some of them displaced to the Khorasan region.
The Zaferanlu Kurds were moved to Khorasan by Shah Abbas I in the early 17th century and settled in areas like Quchan. They had semi-autonomous rule, and they were involved in fighting off the Turkmen, the Uzbeks, etc., and exerting control over there.
Check out more here:
https://grok.com/share/c2hhcmQtMg%3D%3D_9e575283-af4b-42ed-ad41-9acd11aa1902
So, what does this all mean?
The Kurds are spread out throughout the Middle East in quite an epic fashion. They certainly deserve a homeland, I think, and it would make most sense for it to be in northern Iraq and potentially even to incorporate parts of Iran, but imagining this happening is difficult. It would also involve the upsetting of multiple nations.
I support the Kurds, definitely, but what is there to talk about? Many of them live in a normalized, regular, modern lifestyle in Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and throughout Europe. They do not attach their identity to the creation of a Kurdish state, or at least not to such a degree that they wish to go back and fight for one. It may be the case that Kurdish ambitions, like Jewish ambitions, are more about contributing to diverse societies throughout the world than imposing a new state on others.
The Palestinians, on the other hand, are still the majority occupants of their lands and deserve their rights... WHich brings us to...
III. If you support Gaza and West Bank being their own state that exists alongside Israel, I support that, too... I want the violence to end, and I also think that the full displacement of Jews is not just unethical but undesirable. But there is somethign else to be said about all this...
The Jews and Arabs maybe need to have a single state that focuses just on serving them their basic rights. There needs to be a sense of moving beyond ethnic and religious identity and moving towards a sense of the individual who is concerned chiefly with his own rights and the love of his neighbor.
But this is all so liberal, lol. Forgive me for such silly sentiments..! (j/k this is serious. I am just pointing out the irony of me being someone thought of as some sort of reactionary conservative saying these things.)