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Originally posted by ivanhoeI'd say only you would regard "Israel" as the same thing as the "Jewish people". Certainly someone writing in the 1980's wouldn't.
I'll help you a bit, marauder. We'll start at the beginning.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
What do you think the following means ?
“In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate You are the best community that has been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. ry, namely as "Israel" ?
(.... and please answer the question for a change, marauder)
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Originally posted by no1marauderThat's not an answer to the question.
I'd say only you would regard "Israel" as a the same thing as the "Jewish people". Certainly someone writing in the 1980's wouldn't.
We were studying a text, marauder. Read it and then answer my question.
I'll help you again, marauder.
"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."
What do you think the text is referring to mentioning "It's predecessors" other than the "Jewish people". There never was a State of Israel before the present one.
... and what does "eliminate" mean" ?
I'm anxious to read how you wriggle your way out of this one.
Next quote:
"This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails.
Does this quote state that the enemy is the "State of Israel" or "the Jews" ?
Originally posted by ivanhoePlease explain what the "predecessors" of the Jewish people were that were eliminated by Islam. That does not make sense.
"It doesn't make sense."
Ha ha ha ha .......
Now if Israel means the State of Israel then Islam did eliminate its predecessors i.e. the nation states which occupied the land that is now Israel.
Originally posted by ivanhoeI'm waiting for the "Let's kill all the Jews" part. Will we ever get there?
Next quote:
"This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all t ...[text shortened]... revails.
Does this quote state that the enemy is the "State of Israel" or "the Jews" ?
Originally posted by lucifershammerLH, you are becoming more and more like Ivanhoe everyday. It's so
Let's see if I can put this another way:
Art Critic: The Lady Giaconda (in the Mona Lisa) is holding a large watermelon.
Me: No, she isn't.
AC: Of course she is. Recent studies have shown that Leonardo [da Vinci] was very fond of watermelons.
Me: So what? She's not holding a watermelon!
AC: She has to be. Given Leonardo's fondness for wa ...[text shortened]... se, Travolta or Allen made racist/homophobe/anti-Semitic comments while drunk?
sad.
I never said that I thought that The Passion... was antisemetic.
Many other people claimed that they felt it had antisemetic under/overtones
and cited whatever they thought supported that claim. Mel Gibson's
stance was that he respected and cared deeply for the Jewish people
and that he would never depict them in such a way.
It is this denial that is now suspect. I disagree with you that a person
will say anything under the influence of alcohol. You are certainly
aware that alcohol disables inhibitions and filters. And he didn't simply
make an isolated comment or two, but a tirade of slurs. This barrage
of antisemetic attacks should raise flags for the critical among us,
and cause us to ask 'Was Mel Gibson being disingenuous?'
Please stop bringing up this strawman where you are insinuating that
I was positing that The Passion... is antisemetic. The movie isn't
even relevant to my main points which were:
1) Mel Gibson has a right to have and voice vicious prejudices as long
as he doesn't discriminate; and
2) The media has turned this into a much bigger deal than it deserves.
If I wanted to talk about the movie, I would have posted in the
Spirituality forum.
Nemesio
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Originally posted by no1marauderOf course it doesn't make sense !
I'm waiting for the "Let's kill all the Jews" part. Will we ever get there?
Marauder, just think what you want to think and read what you want to read and interprete the Hamas Charter the way you want. I feel no need of convincing you in any way of anything. I don't care anymore.
Originally posted by NemesioNemesio: "LH, you are becoming more and more like Ivanhoe everyday."
LH, you are becoming more and more like Ivanhoe everyday. It's so
sad.
I [b]never said that I thought that The Passion... was antisemetic.
Many other people claimed that they felt it had antisemetic under/overtones
and cited whatever they thought supported that claim. Mel Gibson's
stance was that he respected and cared deeply for the Jew ...[text shortened]... nted to talk about the movie, I would have posted in the
Spirituality forum.
Nemesio[/b]
😏
Originally posted by no1marauderBald assertions. Zero evidence. Secret Decoder Ring Defence.
No, believe what you want. Google hits is a very poor way to measure how much play a story got particulary when one story is several years old. And so what about movie grosses? People in the US see movies at home far more than at theaters; there's this invention called cable and another called DVDs.
If you want to think it's all some big ado b ...[text shortened]... support your thesis that his comments are getting gigantic play because of the Passion.
Just in case you've forgotten, this is the 'Debates' forum, no1.
Back to you: give some "hard facts" to support your thesis that his comments are getting gigantic play because of the Passion.
I was hoping you'd ask. Slate was the first mainstream news site to break the news. Here's what they had to say:
"Is Mel Gibson an anti-Semite? Until his recent drunk-driving arrest, the only way to investigate that hypothesis was to study Gibson's controversial 2004 film, The Passion of the Christ, or to puzzle out why Gibson, in an interview with Peggy Noonan for Reader's Digest, declined to put any distance between himself and his father's crackpot view that the Holocaust never occurred..."
http://www.slate.com/id/2146842/entry/2146843/
And this is what the NY Times had to say:
"The film star and director Mel Gibson apologized Saturday for belligerent behavior and for saying what he called “despicable” things that he does “not believe to be true” when he was arrested here on a drunken-driving charge early Friday.
But Mr. Gibson, in a statement, stopped short of addressing claims that he made virulently anti-Semitic remarks to an arresting officer... The report of Mr. Gibson’s outburst further disturbed some people who were already wary of what they saw as anti-Semitic overtones in his 2004 blockbuster “The Passion of the Christ,” and who believe that he has failed to disassociate himself clearly enough from remarks by his father denying the Holocaust."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/us/30gibson.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=login
This isn't rocket science. Here's how news works:
Two years ago - "Mel Gibson makes anti-Semitic Christ film"
Two weeks ago - "Mel Gibson makes anti-Semitic comments while DUI"
It's basic marketing. One doesn't need a secret "US [culture]"-decoder ring to understand how news works. It's pretty much the same around the world.
Originally posted by NemesioI never said that I thought that [i]The Passion... was antisemetic...
LH, you are becoming more and more like Ivanhoe everyday. It's so
sad.
I [b]never said that I thought that The Passion... was antisemetic.
Many other people claimed that they felt it had antisemetic under/overtones
and cited whatever they thought supported that claim. Mel Gibson's
stance was that he respected and cared deeply for the Jew ...[text shortened]... nted to talk about the movie, I would have posted in the
Spirituality forum.
Nemesio[/b]
Please stop bringing up this strawman where you are insinuating that
I was positing that The Passion... is antisemetic.[/i]
Here's what you said on page 1:
I suspect that one's personal views will effect[sic]
the nature of their creative, professional material. That is, I now
wonder about Gibson's denials that The Passion of the Christ [had]
any antisemetic viewpoints.
Why do you think my response was, "If you didn't wonder before, why are you wondering now? It's exactly the same film it was a month back"?