@no1marauder said"Do it or you're fired" is the tantamount to a mandate. Distinguishing between those two is pointless hair splitting. Otherwise, a mandate might be "do it or get a fine" (as in the Smallpox vax mandate from MA a century ago). Most people would rather pay a fine than get fired.
Mandatory measures to slow the spread of deadly, contagious diseases have been accepted uses of the government's police powers for hundreds of years. "Upon the principle of self-defense, of paramount necessity, a community has the right to protect itself against an epidemic of disease which threatens the safety of its members. " https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us ...[text shortened]... o limit the ability of the unvaccinated to spread disease in public places like those of employment.
I see little evidence that having had a J&J shot last February makes it significantly less likely that you're going to spread Omicron. Even if the vax mandates are rational, they're very poorly tailored. That they make no distinction between those previously infected and those never infected is also unscientific in the extreme.
Anyway, my point is not that the government is not ALLOWED to enact mandates. That's a close question and I have no strong position on it. My position is that the vax mandates as presently constructed are a bad idea.
But frankly, I'm happy to see that we're fighting about vax mandates and not school closures and lockdowns. At least that's a step in the right direction.
@sh76 saidIt is not honest to equate "do it or you're fired" with "do it or you'll be arrested and it will be done forcibly".
"Do it or you're fired" is the tantamount to a mandate. Distinguishing between those two is pointless hair splitting. Otherwise, a mandate might be "do it or get a fine" (as in the Smallpox vax mandate from MA a century ago). Most people would rather pay a fine than get fired.
I see little evidence that having had a J&J shot last February makes it significantly less likely th ...[text shortened]... t vax mandates and not school closures and lockdowns. At least that's a step in the right direction.
@athousandyoung saidAs far as I know that’s never been done in the US. The vax mandate on smallpox was backed up only by a fine.
It is not honest to equate "do it or you're fired" with "do it or you'll be arrested and it will be done forcibly".
@sh76
You might think chicken pox is not a big deal but in adults it is called Shingles and you best hope you don't get it because it is a hundred times worse in adults than in children, which is why there is a shingles shot, which I got. A family friend has shingles and he is in agony all the time with skin lesions and such.
He is also an anti vaxxer so I guess you get what you pay for.
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@sh76 saidThe weight of studies on the matter conclude:
"Do it or you're fired" is the tantamount to a mandate. Distinguishing between those two is pointless hair splitting. Otherwise, a mandate might be "do it or get a fine" (as in the Smallpox vax mandate from MA a century ago). Most people would rather pay a fine than get fired.
I see little evidence that having had a J&J shot last February makes it significantly less likely th ...[text shortened]... t vax mandates and not school closures and lockdowns. At least that's a step in the right direction.
That the vaccinated are less likely to get COVID19 (and thus less likely to spread it);
That if they get it, they are less likely to have severe symptons and thus are less likely to spread it by coughing (the most common method of doing so)
And that even if they have symptoms, these clear more quickly thus making spread less likely.
Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable for governments and private businesses (remember DeSantis, Abbott and others oppose private businesses requiring vaccination, not just the Federal or local governments) to insist that those in public areas be vaccinated to lessen the possibility of spread.
Trying to figure out who did or didn't already have COVID would make such measures unenforceable as you well know.
School closures and lockdowns may become useful tools depending on what happens. You might think a few thousand Americans dying every day and tens of thousands being hospitalized is no BFD but if health professionals think such measures will significantly reduce these hellish results, they should be implemented.
EDIT: BTW, there is nothing in Jacobson suggesting that a vaccination law could only be enforced by a fine; in fact:
"The defendant insists that his liberty is invaded when the State subjects him to fine or imprisonment for neglecting or refusing to submit to vaccination;"
The Court rejected the defendant's assertion.
@no1marauder said" the vaccinated are less likely to get COVID19 (and thus less likely to spread it)"
The weight of studies on the matter conclude:
That the vaccinated are less likely to get COVID19 (and thus less likely to spread it);
That if they get it, they are less likely to have severe symptons and thus are less likely to spread it by coughing (the most common method of doing so)
And that even if they have symptoms, these clear more quickly thus making spre ...[text shortened]... r neglecting or refusing to submit to vaccination;"
The Court rejected the defendant's assertion.
That is a false conclusion. That is based on the assumption that vaccinated people do not change their behavior and they unquestionably do. They don't socially distance as much, wash their hands less, wear masks less, hug their friends and relatives more and generally are unaware that they could be asymptomatic carriers spreading the virus when they are!
The weight of studies on the matter ignore all those other factors that are important. STOP BEING A COVIDIOT!
@metal-brain saidYou have absolutely zero evidence to support such a claim. In fact, numerous studies refute it:
" the vaccinated are less likely to get COVID19 (and thus less likely to spread it)"
That is a false conclusion. That is based on the assumption that vaccinated people do not change their behavior and they unquestionably do. They don't socially distance as much, wash their hands less, wear masks less, hug their friends and relatives more and generally are unaware that ...[text shortened]... t of studies on the matter ignore all those other factors that are important. STOP BEING A COVIDIOT!
"Unvaccinated people are more likely to engage in risky behaviors that can contribute to the spread of COVID-19 according to data presented by the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health this week."
https://www.smdp.com/risky-behavior-more-prevalent-in-unvaccinated-individuals/207471
"Americans who have not been vaccinated are more likely to engage in Fourth of July plans."
https://www.businessinsider.com/unvaccinated-americans-more-likely-attend-july-4-celebration-parties-study-2021-6
" Polls show a strong majority of those who are refusing the vaccine already feel safe interacting without masks."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/14/how-many-unvaccinated-people-will-quietly-stop-wearing-masks-now/
"In fact, Morning Consult’s Return to Normal weekly trend data indicates that U.S. adults who have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine are less likely to feel comfortable doing a wide range of public activities — from attending a concert to dining in a restaurant — than their unvaccinated peers."
https://morningconsult.com/2021/05/12/vaccinated-unvaccinated-americans-comfort-with-activities/
And on and on.
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/14/texas-covid-19-guidelines-masks/
https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/11/22/unvaccinated-americans-thanksgiving-meals-poll
There is no empirical basis for your guesswork.
@no1marauder saidAll of those studies are based on the assumption that vaccinated people do not change their behavior and they unquestionably do. They don't socially distance as much, wash their hands less, wear masks less, hug their friends and relatives more and generally are unaware that they could be asymptomatic carriers spreading the virus when they are!
You have absolutely zero evidence to support such a claim. In fact, numerous studies refute it:
"Unvaccinated people are more likely to engage in risky behaviors that can contribute to the spread of COVID-19 according to data presented by the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health this week."
https://www.smdp.com/risky-behavior-more-prevalent-in-unvaccinate ...[text shortened]... 22/unvaccinated-americans-thanksgiving-meals-poll
There is no empirical basis for your guesswork.
You have absolutely zero evidence. You cannot show a correlation between high vaccination rates and lower covid infection rates in states or countries. That is the real evidence, not how much viral shedding is theoretically happening in asymptomatic carriers.
Vaccinated people visit friends and families more. That in itself can undo all of those studies you posted. Those studies completely ignore behavioral changes we all know are happening. Our government is even encouraging the spread with their pro gene vaccine ads. Remember that guy who said "I'm coming to give you a hug mom"?
Their vaccine ads are killing people. They are misleading people into thinking they cannot spread the virus when they can. Those ads are increasing the spread. Doesn't increasing the spread kill people or is that not accepted rhetoric anymore in these post lockdown days?
@metal-brain saidShut up you moron.
" the vaccinated are less likely to get COVID19 (and thus less likely to spread it)"
That is a false conclusion. That is based on the assumption that vaccinated people do not change their behavior and they unquestionably do. They don't socially distance as much, wash their hands less, wear masks less, hug their friends and relatives more and generally are unaware that ...[text shortened]... t of studies on the matter ignore all those other factors that are important. STOP BEING A COVIDIOT!
Study after study have proven it.
I already linked you to several.
All your puking up is debunked garbage you rim from right-wing paranoid sites.
@shavixmir saidAll of those studies are based on the assumption that vaccinated people do not change their behavior and they unquestionably do.
Shut up you moron.
Study after study have proven it.
I already linked you to several.
All your puking up is debunked garbage you rim from right-wing paranoid sites.
They don't socially distance as much, wash their hands less, wear masks less, hug their friends and relatives more and generally are unaware that they could be asymptomatic carriers spreading the virus when they are!
Do any of those studies take the factors I listed above into account? If not, they don't prove anything. The only way to measure vaccinated people spreading the virus is to compare the vaccination rate of a country or state and the infection cases count to see if there is a correlation.
Can you show a clear correlation? Yes or no?