Ukraine Refuses Any Ceasefire

@no1marauder said
"Ukraine has ruled out agreeing to a ceasefire with Russia - and said it will not accept any deal with Moscow that involves giving up territory.

In his nightly address to his people, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy vowed that although the fighting would be bloody, the end to the war in Ukraine would come only through diplomacy and that the Russian occupation of its terri ...[text shortened]... ll eventually commit to active combat operations against Russia to save them.

Any other theories?

Please provide a link to the peace offer made by Putin that the war mongering Ukrainians put in the shredder.

@kevcvs57 said
Exactly there will be no peace until Putin’s losses outweigh his gains, finally some realpolitik
Heavier weapons and air defence systems for Ukraine are required before there is any hope of peace.

What do you suggest, throwing more money at the problem?
Don't we have enough inflation?

That is not tax money, you know. It is created out of nothing. You could call it an inflation tax though. We all pay for it in higher prices.

@metal-brain said
What do you suggest, throwing more money at the problem?
Don't we have enough inflation?

That is not tax money, you know. It is created out of nothing. You could call it an inflation tax though. We all pay for it in higher prices.

Well if it’s created out nothing what’s your problem money created out of nothing sounds like quantitative easing and that went on to the benefit of the banks for long enough.
Also helping the Ukrainians to hold the line in Ukraine is going to be a lot cheaper and less globally destructive than holding the line in Poland or the Baltic states. Only anti western wsr mongers want to appease Putin.

@kevcvs57 said
Well if it’s created out nothing what’s your problem money created out of nothing sounds like quantitative easing and that went on to the benefit of the banks for long enough.
Also helping the Ukrainians to hold the line in Ukraine is going to be a lot cheaper and less globally destructive than holding the line in Poland or the Baltic states. Only anti western wsr mongers want to appease Putin.

And that went on to the benefit of counterfeiters too. There is a reason counterfeiting is illegal, it causes inflation.

Russia only wants Ukraine back in the same way the USA would want Texas back if they lost it to coup. Your claim that Russia will not stop there is pure propaganda. It is NATO that didn't respect boundaries.

Quantitative easing is just a scam. I have never condoned it. It is a scam that benefits the wealthy at the expense of the poor. Throwing money at the problem in Ukraine is also a scam that benefits the wealthy at the expense of the poor. Inflation is the tool of choice for economic warfare.

@metal-brain said
And that went on to the benefit of counterfeiters too. There is a reason counterfeiting is illegal, it causes inflation.

Russia only wants Ukraine back in the same way the USA would want Texas back if they lost it to coup. Your claim that Russia will not stop there is pure propaganda. It is NATO that didn't respect boundaries.

Quantitative easing is just a scam. I ...[text shortened]... nefits the wealthy at the expense of the poor. Inflation is the tool of choice for economic warfare.

Stop lying Ukraine never had the same relationship with Russia that Texas had with the US As ONE of the United States.
Ukraine is a fully recognised sovereign state just as sovereign as the US and Russia. What your logic is implying is that the term sovereignty is meaningless and anyone can claim any territory anywhere in the world.
Might makes right so if NATO can defeat Russia it has the moral right to annex it obviously.

@kevcvs57 said
Please provide the link where Russia has sued for peace in any way or stop lying.
All Zelensky said was EU leaders should not be scrambling around Putin looking for an off-ramp for a mass murderer. If Putin has a serious offer to make to Ukraine regarding its territorial integrity and sovereignty going forward talks will begin. But Putin has offered no such thing so you rea ...[text shortened]... require the heavier artillery promised and air defence systems to protect civilians in the meantime.

Jesus you're incredibly ignorant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_peace_negotiations

No Russia hasn't "sued for peace" but the ingredients for a deal have been on the table since March when Turkish mediators said agreement was close. However, Zelensky, like you, has talked himself into the wet dream that the Ukraine can militarily defeat Russia and even drive them out of the Crimea.

Some more Western toys are not going to alter the strategic balance; this is now a war of attrition and Russia has more then three times Ukraine's population and an almost unlimited supply of troops. And the fighting is being done on Ukrainian soil, which is leading to destruction of her cities, the collapse of its economy and millions of refugees fleeing the country. The longer the war lasts, the worse it is for everybody, but especially the Ukraine.

@kevcvs57 said
Stop lying Ukraine never had the same relationship with Russia that Texas had with the US As ONE of the United States.
Ukraine is a fully recognised sovereign state just as sovereign as the US and Russia. What your logic is implying is that the term sovereignty is meaningless and anyone can claim any territory anywhere in the world.
Might makes right so if NATO can defeat Russia it has the moral right to annex it obviously.

"Might made right" when NATO detached Kosovo from Serbia, didn't it?

@no1marauder said
Jesus you're incredibly ignorant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_peace_negotiations

No Russia hasn't "sued for peace" but the ingredients for a deal have been on the table since March when Turkish mediators said agreement was close. However, Zelensky, like you, has talked himself into the wet dream that the Ukraine can militarily defeat Russi ...[text shortened]... ng the country. The longer the war lasts, the worse it is for everybody, but especially the Ukraine.

So no Russian peace offer then just the words of a country trying to walk a tightrope between Russia and Ukraine and you think I’m ignorant.
The world has seen what happens when Russian forces take control of an area haven’t we but you expect the west to leave Ukraine weaponless in the face of the same Russian army that has almost certainly committed atrocity after atrocity in the occupied territories and is using banned cluster bombs in civilian targets.
That is why Ukraine’s president is calling for heavier artillery and air defence systems so they can force Russian artillery back and out of the range of Ukraine’s major cities and deploy top of the range air defence to defend against missile strikes.
The problem you pro Russian mob have is that even you cannot muddy the waters regarding the Ukrainian peoples determination to fight for their land and sovereignty with or without western aid. What you are in reality suggesting is that we leave Ukraine to be pummelled into total defeat and to disappear as a national entity by a modern day Peter the Great. The fact that Putin does not recognise Ukraine as a state in any way shape or form should be a big enough clue as to his plans for the territory even for a Russophile like yourself but please do not pretend your the least bit interested in the fate of the Ukrainian people, that is as disgusting as it is dishonest.

@kevcvs57 said
So no Russian peace offer then just the words of a country trying to walk a tightrope between Russia and Ukraine and you think I’m ignorant.
The world has seen what happens when Russian forces take control of an area haven’t we but you expect the west to leave Ukraine weaponless in the face of the same Russian army that has almost certainly committed atrocity after atrocity ...[text shortened]... least bit interested in the fate of the Ukrainian people, that is as disgusting as it is dishonest.

Your pathetic lies and insults really aren't worth responding to any more. Obviously you haven't even bothered to read the many reports regarding the peace talks in March (the terms of which were pretty close to what YOU said was an acceptable outcome back when you hadn't turned into a war mongering liar willing to destroy the Ukrainian People in a misguided belief that this will "save" Europe).

I made no proposal to leave the Ukraine "weaponless" and your statement to the contrary just shows either your state of advanced delusion or your willingness to spout knowing falsehoods. I did propose a ceasefire AND a simultaneous halt to weapon shipments; considering the present military situation that would be quite favorable to the Ukraine.

Calling me "pro-Russian" or a "Russophile" is just more of your childish antics. There's a thoughtful article in Politico by Charles Kupchan, who served on the National Security Council under Presidents Obama and Clinton: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/06/15/negotiating-to-end-the-ukraine-war-isnt-appeasement-00039798

Excerpts:

"A negotiated end to the conflict is the right goal — and one that needs to arrive sooner rather than later. Ukraine likely lacks the combat power to expel Russia from all of its territory, and the momentum on the battlefield is shifting in Russia’s favor. The longer this conflict continues, the greater the death and destruction, the more severe the disruptions to the global economy and the food supply, and the higher the risk of escalation to full-scale war between Russia and NATO."

" Instead of offering arms with no strings attached — effectively leaving strategy up to the Ukrainians — Washington needs to launch a forthright discussion about war termination with allies, with Kyiv, and ultimately, with Moscow."

"Washington should avoid painting itself into a corner by predicting catastrophe if Russia remains in control of a slice of Ukraine when the fighting stops. Such forecasts make compromise more difficult — and risk magnifying the geopolitical impact of whatever territorial gains Russia may salvage."

"Putin is poised to remain in power for the foreseeable future. He will be a troublemaker no matter how this war ends; flexing his geopolitical muscle and burnishing his nationalist credentials are the primary sources of his domestic legitimacy. Furthermore, humiliating Putin is risky business; he could well be more reckless with his back up against the wall than if he can claim victory by taking another bite out of Ukraine. The West has learned to live with and contain Putin for the past two decades — and will likely continue to have to do so into the next."

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/06/15/negotiating-to-end-the-ukraine-war-isnt-appeasement-00039798

Maybe you can respond to those points sans your usual emotionalism, lies, insults and paranoid delusions.

@no1marauder said
"Might made right" when NATO detached Kosovo from Serbia, didn't it?

Still banging the pro genocidal Serbian drum then what is it with you regarding Russia and it’s expansionist allies in Europe?
Yeah when are them NATO troops gonna stop pummelling Serbian cities, raping Serbian women and go home🙄

@no1marauder said
Your pathetic lies and insults really aren't worth responding to any more. Obviously you haven't even bothered to read the many reports regarding the peace talks in March (the terms of which were pretty close to what YOU said was an acceptable outcome back when you hadn't turned into a war mongering liar willing to destroy the Ukrainian People in a misguided belief that t ...[text shortened]... you can respond to those points sans your usual emotionalism, lies, insults and paranoid delusions.

A) well why not publish those terms that are ‘pretty close’ to what I think is a rational peace treaty. I bet Ukraine didn’t get any more sovereignty or defence guarantees than it has now.
B) You have no way off enforcing a ceasefire on Russia and your criminally naive if you think you can trust Putin to abide by one. Russia started this war by invading Ukraine and the onus is on Russia to stop it.
Please explain why the west has to stop supplying Ukraine with weapons for a ceasefire to be possible. All that usually happens is that both sides agree to stop firing their weapons at each other. You keep conflating Ukraine's ability to defend itself with the conditions for a ceasefire. You either do not have a clue about what a ceasefire actually is or your putting unacceptable conditions on Ukraine for obtaining one. But I get why you’d do that as a pro Russian. But the idea that there isn’t pressure from states like Germany and France on Ukraine behind the scenes is also very naive

C) I’m all for negotiations but in order to negotiate both sides must recognise the others existence, given that Putin does not recognise Ukraine's existence as a separate sovereign state it’s really difficult to understand how Ukraine can negotiate with that reality gap.

D) lol this whole scree is nothing more than an attempt to rationalise the appeasement of an irrational aggressor based on his irrationality. I love that you cited Obama and Clinton as authorities on geopolitical issues and how to deal with an aggressive irrational threat. The first drew red lines in the sand regarding the use of chemical weapons in Syria then hastily scuffed over them when Putin crossed them and the other decided it would be a good idea not to kill Osama bin laden years before 9/11.
Your right though Putin is going to be a problem regardless of what happens in eastern Ukraine and that’s all the more reason to hold the line there but the onus is on us to make sure Ukraine can at least defend its main areas of civilian population and hold the Russians in eastern Ukraine.
Giving Putin any kind of victory isn’t just bad for the Ukraine and the other smaller states that border Russia but it’s also a sure way of consigning the Russian people to an authoritarian future, whilst ultimately that is their choice we really shouldn’t be facilitating it in any way.

@kevcvs57 said
Exactly there will be no peace until Putin’s losses outweigh his gains, finally some realpolitik
Heavier weapons and air defence systems for Ukraine are required before there is any hope of peace.

That is a woefully naive assessment of the situation. Autocrats don't back down. Not when they're in this deep. Putin knows that if he cuts and runs now, it will spell the end of his regime and possibly his life. In the past he has demonstrated a willingness to expend enormous resources, over the course of years, to hold down bits of territory in the Caucasus region.

@kevcvs57 said
A) well why not publish those terms that are ‘pretty close’ to what I think is a rational peace treaty. I bet Ukraine didn’t get any more sovereignty or defence guarantees than it has now.
B) You have no way off enforcing a ceasefire on Russia and your criminally naive if you think you can trust Putin to abide by one. Russia started this war by invading Ukraine and the onus ...[text shortened]... an future, whilst ultimately that is their choice we really shouldn’t be facilitating it in any way.

I've tried to explain this as clearly as I can to your childish mind; negotiations require reciprocal incentives. Right now Russia is clearly winning the war on the ground so if you want them to agree to a ceasefire you have to give them something of value. A halt in Western arms shipments during a ceasefire and negotiations might be enough to get the Russians to agree to such a pause in hostilities.

@soothfast said
That is a woefully naive assessment of the situation. Autocrats don't back down. Not when they're in this deep. Putin knows that if he cuts and runs now, it will spell the end of his regime and possibly his life. In the past he has demonstrated a willingness to expend enormous resources, over the course of years, to hold down bits of territory in the Caucasus region.

Chomsky's main concern seems to be that if Russia really starting losing the war, they might well resort to the use of tactical nuclear weapons which would Trump Western artillery and air defense systems. While I think the chances that the Ukraine can successfully turn the military tide is low, Chomsky's fears are reasonable and the scenario he paints plausible.

@no1marauder said
I've tried to explain this as clearly as I can to your childish mind; negotiations require reciprocal incentives.

I've tried to explain this as clearly as I can to your psychopathic (lack of) soul: and therefore, there will never be an honest negotiation in which Putin is involved.