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@caissad4 saidNo, it isn't the only "issue".
It is solely the Ukrainian willingness to fight and quite possibly die for their freedom and self governance which is the only issue here .
What you seem to repeatedly state is that somehow "you know better " than those risking life and limb for their freedom .
The price of freedom can only be determined by those fighting for their freedom .
The issue is what the West can do. Merely feeding weaponry to the Ukraine with no attempt to end the slaughter is an unwise and immoral policy with seemingly no off-ramp.
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@no1marauder saidYou keep assuming with no evidence whatsoever that the west is not seeking to end the slaughter, the noises actors make in public in situations like this are no indication of what is being said in private or through the usual back channels.
No, it isn't the only "issue".
The issue is what the West can do. Merely feeding weaponry to the Ukraine with no attempt to end the slaughter is an unwise and immoral policy with seemingly no off-ramp.
You do not come across as someone genuinely seeking peace as much as someone who is desperate for a Kremlin victory and by consequence a proxy defeat for nato and the destabilisation of its western flank.
I do not believe you actually give a toss about Ukraine or the Ukrainian people.
Some in here want an acceptable peace for Ukraine with unequivocal sovereignty and independence. Clearly that may mean the loss of some territory in the east but contrary to the propaganda spewed forth by the Putin fanboys on this forum Ukraine is a democracy and the idea of giving up territory will not be an easy sell to the electorate who have fought and died to defend it.
It would be great for Putin though if Zelensky agreed to a loss of territory whilst Putin is murdering his way to more and more of it, not least of all because of the divisions it would create within what remains of Ukraine.
Like you were not already aware of that 🙄
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@kevcvs57 saidListen, I'm sick of responding to such BS.
You keep assuming with no evidence whatsoever that the west is not seeking to end the slaughter, the noises actors make in public in situations like this are no indication of what is being said in private or through the usual back channels.
You do not come across as someone genuinely seeking peace as much as someone who is desperate for a Kremlin victory and by consequence ...[text shortened]... divisions it would create with what remains of Ukraine.
Like you were not already aware of that 🙄
I've made my positions clear and they bear no resemblance to your constant lies. I've shown several analyses that essentially agree with it, none of whom's authors can reasonable be considered to be the pro-Russian stooges you keep labelling anyone who disagrees with your wish for continual war to try to militarily defeat Russia (a fantasy).
I will no longer discuss these matters with you until you stop with the falsehoods and insults.
@kevcvs57 saidThe Ukraine is a "democracy" which banned the second largest party in its Parliament and many others who question the present government's pro-Western and nationalist agenda. https://www.leftvoice.org/president-zelenskyy-bans-opposition-parties-in-ukraine/
You keep assuming with no evidence whatsoever that the west is not seeking to end the slaughter, the noises actors make in public in situations like this are no indication of what is being said in private or through the usual back channels.
You do not come across as someone genuinely seeking peace as much as someone who is desperate for a Kremlin victory and by consequence ...[text shortened]... ivisions it would create within what remains of Ukraine.
Like you were not already aware of that 🙄
@no1marauder saidInteresting wording you chose.
The Ukraine is a "democracy" which banned the second largest party in its Parliament and many others who question the present government's pro-Western and nationalist agenda. https://www.leftvoice.org/president-zelenskyy-bans-opposition-parties-in-ukraine/
Zelensky banned pro-Russian parties during an invasion from Russia, which annexed Crimea, killed civilians, bombed maternity hospitals, leveled entire cities...etc.
I don't agree with Zelensky's actions but your framing of the situation is deliberately inaccurate.
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@vivify saidAll those "pro-Russian" parties condemned the invasion. https://twitter.com/darelasn/status/1501936049316003855
Interesting wording you chose.
Zelensky banned pro-Russian parties during an invasion from Russia, which annexed Crimea, killed civilians, bombed maternity hospitals, leveled entire cities...etc.
I don't agree with Zelensky's actions but your framing of the situation is deliberately inaccurate.
From the largest:
"Opposition Platform - For Life (neo-Party of Regions): “[We share] with the people the terrible tragedy of military aggression, the perfidious invasion of our sovereign territory (...) [We stand] for the need to unite the Ukrainian nation...in the name of Victory” (March 2) 2/7"
"Deliberately inaccurate"? I'm kinda getting sick of these baseless accusations even if they are made from ignorance.
EDIT: Here's another analysis of the bannings which leaves little doubt that it is consistent with anti-democratic machinations that pre-date the Russian invasion of this year: https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/21/why-did-ukraine-suspend-11-pro-russia-parties
@no1marauder said"I'm kinda getting sick of these baseless accusations even if they are based on ignorance.'
All those "pro-Russian" parties condemned the invasion. https://twitter.com/darelasn/status/1501936049316003855
From the largest:
"Opposition Platform - For Life (neo-Party of Regions): “[We share] with the people the terrible tragedy of military aggression, the perfidious invasion of our sovereign territory (...) [We stand] for the need to unite the Ukrainian natio ...[text shortened]... accurate"? I'm kinda getting sick of these baseless accusations even if they are based on ignorance.
LOL...poor poor courtly...is you feelings hurt?
@mott-the-hoople saidWhile lying is considered a valid political tactic by right wingers like yourself, it really has no place in a Debates Forum.
"I'm kinda getting sick of these baseless accusations even if they are based on ignorance.'
LOL...poor poor courtly...is you feelings hurt?
@no1marauder saidYou deliberately chose wording that left out the fact that the banned parties were pro-Russian. That's quite an important omission during a Russian invasion, don't you think?
All those "pro-Russian" parties condemned the invasion. https://twitter.com/darelasn/status/1501936049316003855
From the largest:
"Opposition Platform - For Life (neo-Party of Regions): “[We share] with the people the terrible tragedy of military aggression, the perfidious invasion of our sovereign territory (...) [We stand] for the need to unite the Ukrainian natio ...[text shortened]... accurate"? I'm kinda getting sick of these baseless accusations even if they are based on ignorance.
Pro-Russian parties were also banned in 2015, after Russia's invasion of Crimea:
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/six-years-after-crimea-outlook-russia-friendly-political-establishment-ukraine
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@no1marauder saidThe Ukrainians have already decided to keep fighting with or without Western aid. The only thing that would change if the West stopped providing weapons would be that the slaughter would happen more quickly.
No, it isn't the only "issue".
The issue is what the West can do. Merely feeding weaponry to the Ukraine with no attempt to end the slaughter is an unwise and immoral policy with seemingly no off-ramp.
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@vivify saidBS. The present administration might claim they are "pro-Russian" but all opposed the Russian invasion. It has become a staple of Ukraine's drift towards the West that it treats the portion of its population that is of Russian ethnicity as enemies and traitors.
You deliberately chose wording that left out the fact that the banned parties were pro-Russian. That's quite an important omission during a Russian invasion, don't you think?
Pro-Russian parties were also banned in 2015, after Russia's invasion of Crimea:
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/six-years-after-crimea-outlook-russia-friendly-political-establishment-ukraine
Democracies don't ban significant political parties because they supposedly lack the level of nationalist fervor the present leadership finds desirable.
@vivify saidThat is pretty doubtful.
The Ukrainians have already decided to keep fighting with or without Western aid. The only thing that would change if the West stopped providing weapons would be that the slaughter would happen more quickly.
In any case, what I proposed is a ceasefire with a pause in Western arms shipments while negotiations could be conducted. Preferably, that would include participation of the major Western powers so a comprehensive agreement regarding all major issues could be pursued.
Since the present military situation is strongly in Russia's favor, this would be most beneficial to the Ukraine.
This has already been addressed but let me bring up something Putin said just last month:
https://www.courthousenews.com/putin-blames-nato-for-pushing-russia-into-invasion/
Putin blamed NATO for Russia's invasion. We know Ukraine was nowhere near joining NATO after 14 years of not advancing past the application phase. Crimea was annexed after pro-EU protests, but the EU is not NATO, so that doesn't fly either. This is important because only 3 days ago, a Russian foreign minister claimed "we did not invade Ukraine" and there's only a "special operations mission":
https://www.bbc.com/news/61829953
That Russian foreign minister is again blaming NATO for Russia's unjustified invasion, even though Ukraine is no closer to joining NATO than it was in 2008, and even though NATO has never deployed troops to Ukraine.
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@no1marauder saidI completely agree. But pride is a bitch. Ukrainians would rather die than surrender even more territory to Russia. And it's completely their right to feel that way.
That is pretty doubtful.
In any case, what I proposed is a ceasefire with a pause in Western arms shipments while negotiations could be conducted. Preferably, that would include participation of the major Western powers so a comprehensive agreement regarding all major issues could be pursued.
Since the present military situation is strongly in Russia's favor, this would be most beneficial to the Ukraine.
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@no1marauder saidI agree the ban was undemocratic. No argument there.
BS. The present administration might claim they are "pro-Russian" but all opposed the Russian invasion. It has become a staple of Ukraine's drift towards the West that it treats the portion of its population that is of Russian ethnicity as enemies and traitors.
Democracies don't ban significant political parties because they supposedly lack the level of nationalist fervor the present leadership finds desirable.
However, even though the Pro-Russian parties condemned the invasion it could be seen the same way as Republicans condemning the insurrection. The fact is that their continued loyalties speak louder than words, especially since they continued being pro-Russian after the Crimean invasion.