Originally posted by stockenThat almost sounds like a song. 😉
Imagine a world where discussions like these are ridiculous, if you can. Picture a world where it's not their fault the world sucks. It's not they who initiate violence, and violence is not part of the picture. Now, if that could be taken even further (I know, you probably can't think this far, but try). Try to comprehend you living in a societ ...[text shortened]... y, Finland and a whole bunch of other countries has come a whole lot further than the US.
Originally posted by stocken"The least we could do is make the world a better place,
And a beautiful song it is. 😉
---
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.
Not just for a few, but all the human race
To end wars and quarrels, make John Lennon's dream come true,
To build a new set of morals,
It's the least that we could do."
(Christy Moore)
🙂
Originally posted by stockenWhat did Sweden do to stop Hitler and the Holocaust? What did Sweden do to stop the Ethnic Cleansing in the former Yugoslavia? Or the Genocide in Rwanda? What is Sweden doing now to stop the atrocities being committed in Darfur? Now please enlighten me again about Sweden's way of solving problems.
Sweden is not hiding behind a 'convenient shield' of neutrality. Sweden is handling all the mess created through wars and injust societies the best we can. (Sweden is not the only country doing this, and we're far from perfect - in fact, lately we've performed poorly on this area, but I'm hoping we'll get better at it again.) Believe me, that takes a ...[text shortened]... tion of us and them, when really, in the end, it's just a whole lot of us.
I'm all for a peaceful solution to a problem but the fact is there will be
times when war is the only solution, when all other ways have failed, as history has taught us.
Ok, I tried to imagine that world you dream of. It was all nice and good until REALITY hit me. WAKE UP!!! it will never happen. There will always be Cultural, Social , and Political differences and barriers between peoples and nations that no idealogy or "system" can
transcend. A good example is the conflict between western and Islamic values.
Originally posted by CentaurionAll I can say is: "Why do you think that is?"
I'm all for a peaceful solution to a problem but the fact is there will be times when war is the only solution, when all other ways have failed, as history has taught us.
History has taught us that war causes nothing but pain and misery and never really solves anything.
Originally posted by CentaurionA peaceful solution is always available. If your country decides to engage in a war, don't expect help from people like me. I will help people who's lifes are destroyed by that war. Not to fight the war itself. But to try and prevent the war in the first place, or limit its consequences when it has already begun.
What did Sweden do to stop Hitler and the Holocaust? What did Sweden do to stop the Ethnic Cleansing in the former Yugoslavia? Or the Genocide in Rwanda? What is Sweden doing now to stop the atrocities being committed in Darfur? Now please enlighten me again about Sweden's way of solving problems.
What does Sweden do when wars break out? We accept fugitives fleeing their countries. We allow them an opportunity to rebuild their lives over here. There's still plenty to be wanted on how immigrants are received by the common man here in Sweden (especially those who feel they lose their jobs because of it), but on the whole, Sweden sets a good example I think. To help out the victims is, in my opinion, a much more worthwhile standpoint, than to contribute in producing more victims.
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There are plenty of statistics to demonstrate that Sweden is one of the countries leading the world in quality of living (just as there are plenty of stats to demonstrate USA leads in other areas).
Although if you all go around singing THAT John Lennon song, I may have to reconsider any plans to visit...
It's fascinating, though, watching the dialogue between two countries at opposite ends of the Western philosophical spectrum. The highly individualistic USA versus the highly socialisitic (?) Sweden.
Here in Australia we sit somewhere in the middle. Our tax rates are considerably lower than Sweden's and hence the extent to which Government provides services for everyone is also lower. However, we have a century-long tradition of providing a welfare 'safety net' in areas likes wages and healthcare. One of the biggest fears about those areas is that they will become 'Americanized' - we look at the USA and we most definitely do not like what we see.
The current government has just, after years of talking about it but not having the power in both houses of Parliament, made radical changes to the workplace relations system. There has been heated debate about what will happen now.
They've kept their hands off the universal health care system, though, I think they realise that trying to tinker with THAT would be complete political suicide.
Originally posted by CentaurionI think you're being a little prejudice here. There's a strong dislike being expressed by muslims all over the world to terrorist activities. Islam in itself is no worse than christianity in itself. The problem is always about fundamentalism, and that can never be remedied through wars. If anything a war will only strenghten an extremist.
A good example is the conflict between western and Islamic values.
Also, there's different kinds of wars. A war can be initiated by an agressive nation to reap benefits like natural resources. It can also be initiated by people who are oppressed and injustly treated. We (in the western world) are always eager to proclaim human rights and justice to everyone, while some western countries are notoriously known to help oppressive governments stay in power. If the people being opressed strikes back, we think it's awful and those people must be met with more violence. Well, I don't agree. Those people must be met with understanding, and we should not help any government oppress their people. See? The problem with people being unable to live in peace is not cultural or religious differences. No sane person (and most people who grow up being treated justly are sane) would go about killing off entire groups of people for their religious belief or any cultural difference.
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Originally posted by orfeoSweden is not purely socialistic, and I'm not sure I want that either. Individuals are important. If the citizens aren't happy, it won't matter how well the social structure works.
It's fascinating, though, watching the dialogue between two countries at opposite ends of the Western philosophical spectrum. The highly individualistic USA versus the highly socialisitic (?) Sweden.
But individualism tends to focus too much on the individual ego (self-satisfaction and realization, that sort of things). That also has a destructive impact on society at large to the point where people can just walk by crimes being committed because it doesn't concern them directly (and getting involved can greatly complicate their personal lifes).
I think the path to a good society is through people's own wishes to lead a good and healthy life. If that can be offered by a society, then people would abide by the rules I should think. And what are people's wishes? Well, most people that I've met, no matter what their religious belief or political standpoint seem to want pretty much the same thing: To be able to live in peace, practice their own religions or pursuit their own interests in life and seeing their love-ones flourish in life. For that to happen, the society you live in must be stable. Stability can only come when people feel like their treated justly; noone is privileged in society in any way. Which is of course the very reason we won't see the world as one big united, just society anytime soon. People in the west are too individualized and people in the east are too indoctrinated and all the people in between are too confused. It takes time then.
Originally posted by orfeoJust as a point of interest, and in no way am I knowledgable on the subject apart from my impressions as a 5 month long tourist, but Oz really gave me the impression of America, especially the layout of the towns, with strips of motels on the way into most towns.
One of the biggest fears about those areas is that they will become 'Americanized' - we look at the USA and we most definitely do not like what we see.
This may be just because America and Australia are newer westernised countries and so city planning is a bit more organised.
D
Originally posted by stockenThen do it and get half your population off the dole...put your $$ where your mouth is.....quit taking 8-week vacations and maybe your economy will grow....socialism breeds slackness to a degree...
Yes, I'm sure. It always pleases the small-minded when people having come further on the sociological latter are forced down by the lesser evolved. I have a suggestion for you. How about if you tried to look at it like a challenge and attempt to make the US of A better? That's ridiculous, I know. This sort of change has to come from those who are actually su ...[text shortened]... as it may sound. Rather, it's self-preservation at its best, and it makes you feel good.
Originally posted by jareyesThere you go again shooting your mouth off. I've been to Mexico, Europe, S. America, so I've travelled quite a bit. Why do you say I hate Mexicans just because I want controlled immigration? That mskes you look reacist and prejudiced. Mexico could care less if America loses the war on terror. If Osama were president of the US, you millions of peons would still come pouring across the border as long as your inept Vicente Fox does NOTHING to improve the Mexican economy....can you point on a map of the US where your relatives, illegal or not, live? I bet you know what a "coyote" is, eh....you probably are one....stop worshipping bull fighting, because the only result is bullchit!!
Oh, there you go again... pff, too bad I'm a Christian -otherwise I would rejoice when the "Evil Empire" cracks as all empires do. What is it with you, rednecks, that hate Mexicans so much? 😞
Read some books. TRAVEL. Think. Stop worshiping Ophra.
Maybe then Americans will be able at least to locate in the map the countries they invade. 😛