Shogun Diplomacy

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Gee, Ito was at war with Shimazu, who was disappearing at lightning speed around the bend. How challenging to be at war with more than one enemy. It would have been a question of timing, as I said.

The seas around Shikoku were also dominated by Otomo when I arrived in Sanuki. It came as a bit of a surprise, as I recall.

Have a nice day now.

So your idea of diplomacy is trying to get the Hokosawa to go to war with the Otomo and the Ito to go to the war with the Ryuzoji? Both within the first few turns of the game when you could provide them no support at the time? I suppose if people are dumb enough, that's great "diplomacy" FOR YOU. But an early war esp. with more than one other enemy is usually a disaster. Hosokawa's decision to go along with your "urgings' ruined it.

And which is it BTW: did you go the Hosokawa's aid because the Ito had entered the war OR did the Ito withdraw their troops after you objected? They can't both be true; if the Ito left because of your words then the first rationale doesn't apply, does it?

EDIT: Compare and contrast:

Hosokawa could have coped with Otomo on his own (it was when Ito started getting involved that I decided to act).

with:

Because I asked Ito to get them off (they were there before that: look at turn 5 and 6).

Originally posted by no1marauder
And which is it BTW: did you go the Hosokawa's aid because the Ito had entered the war OR did the Ito withdraw their troops after you objected?

The Ito withdrew their troops because I asked them to, but I was already beginning to suspect that his talk of alliance with me was false, so I moved in before he could come back. Do you understand? Now Hosokawa's doing just fine while Otomo's looking a bit stumpy.

If you want to be anal about it, here we go:
1. Ito's on Shikoku, Hosokawa's losing. I decide to get involved but am some way away.
2. I ask Ito to leave Shikoku, because he still says he's going to be my vassal "at some point" so I think this is a good way to see if he's telling the truth.
3. Ito leaves, I arrive.
4. Ito comes back, surprise, surprise.
5. Some turns later, Shikoku is ours, and the risk of Hosokawa's making early war is vindicated, with Otomo reduced to 71 gold.

Jesus. You call me tiresome.

Now that I've been so kind as to divulge my thinking at that stage in the game, how about you tell me how you won Ito over to your side when the Uesugi clan was just getting started.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
The Ito withdrew their troops because I asked them to, but I was already beginning to suspect that his talk of alliance with me was false, so I moved in before he could come back. Do you understand? Now Hosokawa's doing just fine while Otomo's looking a bit stumpy.

If you want to be anal about it, here we go:
1. Ito's on Shikoku, Hosokawa's losing ...[text shortened]... ll me how you won Ito over to your side when the Uesugi clan was just getting started.

No, Hokosawa's decision to go to immediate war with the Otomo left them out of any gains on Honshu. You and the Monks got the great bulk of those, just like you planned. So Hokosawa now has zero chance of winning. That "vindicates" the decision from your angle, but hardly from theirs.

It made sense for the clans on Kyushu to stick together and get the first dominion while avoiding destructive war between them. In both MD and NE the winning coalition was composed of nations who were in close geographical proximity and who allied early. That's what I told both Ito and Otomo. They agreed. Being the vassal of a power far away makes little sense IMO.

Originally posted by no1marauder
No, Hokosawa's decision to go to immediate war with the Otomo left them out of any gains on Honshu. You and the Monks got the great bulk of those, just like you planned. So Hokosawa now has zero chance of winning. That "vindicates" the decision from your angle, but hardly from theirs.

It made sense for the clans on Kyushu to stick together and ...[text shortened]... oth Ito and Otomo. They agreed. Being the vassal of a power far away makes little sense IMO.

Plenty for everyone on Kyushu; Hosokawa wants a personal chat with Otomo, I think.

Sound reasoning for an alliance, as you set it out.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Being the vassal of a power far away makes little sense IMO.

So do you think that it is wise for commoners to become vassals especially if the Suzerain is nearby?

A bit like myself and Ikko perhaps?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Are you going to send me whiny PM's like you did in MD until I had to put you on my "banned" or whatever list? You're a pathetic failure in the games AND as a human being.

Since you can't put up, STFU. You've called me a liar but you have nothing other than your postured blustering to fall back on. Much sound and fury, signifying nothing. Or, No One, in this case.

I'm doing swimmingly in this game, you will be too, quite literally, soon.

A pathetic failure as a human being? LMAO! Look in the mirror! 😀

You're too dull-witted to see that these are games; no, in your narrow viewpoint, you're a great armchair general who quotes von Clausewitz like you actually know what he's talking about!

Poor Toy Swordsman, his genius undid him again....

Originally posted by cadwah
So do you think that it is wise for commoners to become vassals especially if the Suzerain is nearby?

A bit like myself and Ikko perhaps?

Sure it makes sense. It also makes sense for the suzerain and his vassals to act together to try to win. It makes little sense for the vassals to turn over huge amounts of Gold Province Value to their Suzerain leaving him well ahead of them and with no incentive to include them in a victory coalition. Esp. when the Suzerain has been working in close concert with another Lord from Turn 1.

EDIT: Actually BDN said he was allied with nook BEFORE the game (if that makes any sense).

Originally posted by eagles54
Since you can't put up, STFU. You've called me a liar but you have nothing other than your postured blustering to fall back on. Much sound and fury, signifying nothing. Or, No One, in this case.

I'm doing swimmingly in this game, you will be too, quite literally, soon.

A pathetic failure as a human being? LMAO! Look in the mirror! 😀

You're ually know what he's talking about!

Poor Toy Swordsman, his genius undid him again....

Go away; your childish whining is pathetic. You suck.

EDIT: Answer this question, little boy:

And if I offended you soooooooooooooooo much, how come you never broke alliance until AFTER Uesugi went to war against me?


Otherwise your entire story about how I could have had such a "loyal ally if only I had done X" is BS.

Originally posted by no1marauder
And if I offended you soooooooooooooooo much, how come you never broke alliance until AFTER Uesugi went to war against me?

Out of forgetfulness? So as not to give the game away?

Originally posted by no1marauder
EDIT: Actually BDN said he was allied with nook BEFORE the game (if that makes any sense).

It doesn't?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Go away; your childish whining is pathetic. You suck.

EDIT: Answer this question, little boy:

And if I offended you soooooooooooooooo much, how come you never broke alliance until AFTER Uesugi went to war against me?


Otherwise your entire story about how I could have had such a "loyal ally if only I had done X" is BS.

My word, you're more dense than the steel in my blade.

So-called "alliance" is used often as a tactic to keep one's enemies at a safe distance until there is an opportune time to strike them. You know that. Everyone knows that. Stop your infantile bleating and STFU about me "spreading falsehoods."

Gee, I could have been such an effective double agent for you, far from your realm. Another pair of eyes, as it were. No, you're too thick (but particularly arrogant) to have the imagination to see that, correct, Mighty Swordsman>

I'm sure your allies can see your error. 😉

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Plenty for everyone on Kyushu; Hosokawa wants a personal chat with Otomo, I think.

Sound reasoning for an alliance, as you set it out.

I'm sure you'll hog whatever gains you eventually make there like you did on Honshu. After all, you and the Monk are only 146 GPV away from declaring victory.

One other thing: my primary strategy at the start of games is not having neighboring realms gang up on me as happened almost immediately in MD. It was hard enough work trying to keep Otomo, Ito, Amako and the others on friendly terms; I didn't worry very much about the Mogami and the Hojo and the rest. I really didn't decide to go Royal until the 6th move; up until then it was possible I was going to be someone's vassal. But when Otomo and Ito both decided not to be Royals, I decided it would be a good idea to do so for the reasons given.

Even if I had known from the start that you and the Monk would become Royals with several vassals, I don't see how I could have done anything about it i.e. I fail to see where my "diplomacy" or lack thereof made any difference. And unlike MD, I said virtually nothing in this thread until it was already clear that you, the Monks and your vassals were going to war against the Kyushu. So the whole "my attitude" thing is a red herring.

Originally posted by eagles54
My word, you're more dense than the steel in my blade.

So-called "alliance" is used often as a tactic to keep one's enemies at a safe distance until there is an opportune time to strike them. You know that. Everyone knows that. Stop your infantile bleating and STFU about me "spreading falsehoods."

Gee, I could have been such an effective double to see that, correct, Mighty Swordsman>

I'm sure your allies can see your error. 😉

You're a laughable little jerk. You're not that clever and everybody knows it. You were up Saxony's rear in MD because you can't think for yourself and now you're up Uesugi's in this one. Nothing you've done or will do, will make the slightest difference to my position in the game. And I have better things to do than trade PM's with a loser like you where you give your uninformed opinions about people in the game. I'm glad I missed that crap.

EDIT: I was halfway across the board; isn't that a "safe distance" enough? Are you that afraid of me?

Originally posted by no1marauder
You're a laughable little jerk. You're not that clever and everybody knows it. You were up Saxony's rear in MD because you can't think for yourself and now you're up Uesugi's. Nothing you've done or will do, will make the slightest difference to my position in the game. And I have better things to do than trade PM's with a loser like you where you give your uninformed opinions about people in the game. I'm glad I missed that crap.

This stuff is almost like getting entertained at the movies...

You, O "Samurai," try to come off as an armchair warrior of the first caliber. I'm trying my best to compassionately show you how your rampant arrogance, coupled with your lack of emotional growth, is leading to your demise and that of your allies in this game.

I'm not angry at you in any way, nor have I been. I'm your teacher. Will you have the requisite humility to take the lesson?

Originally posted by no1marauder
I was halfway across the board; isn't that a "safe distance" enough? Are you that afraid of me?

I'll meet you anywhere on the board. I'll fight you one-on-one, gladly.