I support Hopscotch's sentiments all the way - some means of moderating users is needed. I can play against a computer whenever I want I just load up my software and away I go. But when I come here I come to play against another person, exchange some comments and learn to play better chess. A computer teaches you something and if you have the right programs they can even tutor you, but you can't have a pleasant conversation.
>>>> Not sure if Slow Pawn has ever had a pleasant conversation though.
The issue that needs to be settled on this site is "What proves someone is cheating."
1) Games won / ratings up and down all over the place.
2) Download the PGN then make a move - what about the reverse.
3) Make moves like a computer - if you learn from a computer your style is going to be similar.
For those wondering what will happen to TWIN PEAKS, it has already begun. We have moved the club to another site, TPcc may continue here under new leadership but it will not be the same without the core members.
Originally posted by The Slow PawnAnother prime example of why non-subscribers shouldn't be allowed to post in the forums.
Game 626459
Yeah, clear sign of engine use on Exy's part ... No chance in the endgame and he lost it by being greedy ...
***sense the sarcasm***
- Joined
- 02 Sep 04
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[For those wondering what will happen to TWIN PEAKS, it has already begun. We have moved the club to another site, TPcc may continue here under new leadership but it will not be the same without the core members.[/b]Why have you been moving the club to another site??? Disappointed upon Exy ban... you find it too hard??
Since noone of you is cheating why are you not continuing the club on this site???
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Originally posted by OffWhite1) Games won / ratings up and down all over the place.
The issue that needs to be settled on this site is "What proves someone is cheating."
May paint a picture. May be symptomatic. But it "proves" nothing, other than the fact that the player's rating has gone up or down.
2) Download the PGN then make a move - what about the reverse.
So what? Could be using an offline analysis board. Completely inconclusive. The reverse? Even more inconclusive.
3) Make moves like a computer - if you learn from a computer your style is going to be similar.
Move after move, game after game, humans do not move like computers even if they use a chess engine for tutoring. Often, chess engines do not even move like each other. All is the result of brute force calculation and the preset parameters and coding of each engine versus the particular position on the board. If a player could play like a strong chess engine and process thousands of variations per second to considerable depth, they would become a GM or even world champion very rapidly.
Individual computer-like moves can be identified. Basically, because engines often produce non-intuitive moves that only an engine would produce. These are the result of deep calculation which may give only marginal advantage (and in some cases even a distinct disadvantage) while a simple, intuitive human-like (or theoretical) move would have served the player far better. Incidents like these would certainly constitute evidence. Engines can blunder too.
But there is no better evidence of engine abuse than extremely high match-ups to a specific engine - move after move, game after game. If someone is systematically using Fritz or another popular engine to move on their behalf, it is a fairly easy matter to amass the necessary evidence. But there are hundreds of engines out there. Many can be made to play at a "weaker" level, and some have even been designed to play in a "human-like" manner. The lack of match-up to a Fritz or a Junior or a Chessmaster may only indicate that those particular engines were not excessively or exclusively used.
Most strong human players, GM's included, will match the top class engines 50%-70% of the time. This is because the "best" move is often clearly optimum and fairly obvious to both humans and computers alike. However, if an engine is poorly programmed, or designed to produce non-optimum moves, its match-up to strong players and other engines will decrease significantly and the pool of candidate moves (its variability) will increase markedly. Finding consistently high match-ups to such an engine would prove very difficult against any human player, strong or weak. So if someone were to have extremely high match-ups to such an engine - move after move, game after game - the chances of this being concidental is virtually non-existant.
Isolated evidence that may indicate cheating is certainly insufficient to "prove" engine abuse. There has to be a great deal of evidence and it has to be overwhelming enough to remove any reasonable doubt.
The point has been made that, in reality, "proving" 3(b) is a very difficult excercise. For the many players looked at, and the hundreds of games analyzed, the list of banned players is very short indeed.
If anything we may have set the bar too high. Right now, the probability is inifintely greater for an engine abuser to get away with it than for an innocent player to be banned. But that is the way the Game Mods and Site Admin prefer it.
Originally posted by GatecrasherI don't believe these to be accurate numbers in the game of Correspondence Chess. The few games I analysed of GM's playing correspondence had them matching up in the high 80s, low 90s.
Most strong [b]human players, GM's included, will match the top class engines 50%-70% of the time. [/b]
I think its a bit misleading of you to post figures relating to OTB, when we're all playing CC here.
D
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Originally posted by OffWhiteSorry, we can't give out any confidential information to do with cases considered by the game moderators. That includes games analysis.
Can someone with these game engines show these stats. No-one I know in TWIN PEAKS has a chess program that can import PGN and set up boards so we have not been able to check Exy's games.
I'd like David Tebb or one of the other Mods to PM me with the analysis.
Originally posted by OffWhiteAppears a couple of your team may have the required chess program!
Can someone with these game engines show these stats. No-one I know in TWIN PEAKS has a chess program that can import PGN and set up boards so we have not been able to check Exy's games.
I'd like David Tebb or one of the other Mods to PM me with the analysis.
14 Oct '05 15:07 :: 0 recommendations
Originally posted by Grand Master Gav
Please.. you are ruining a good site.
Sorry chaps I'll be leaving the site. I'll ask my brother and friends to do the same.
I urge the moderators to SIT AND AND TAKE NOTICE.
Do you really want to encourage good and fair people to leave the site. After all if you cut out the good people, all that's left are the cheats.
Exy does not use any Game Engines to predict moves but does use a chess program to store the PGN of games so he can take his laptop anywhere and still see his games.
There are rumours abound that the moderators are using SpyWare to detect what you have running on PCs. IMHO this is not going to be evidence - I have a chess program open on my PC when I play so does this make me a cheater? No, I also find it a handy way of storing games without needing to be on-line and upsetting the wife because I'm hogging the phone line all the time.
PS: I'll be getting Broadbannd soon so I should be able to keep the enemy happy.
I would very much doubt if anyone could prove that Exy cheats - I may even stake a few years subscription on it.
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Originally posted by GatecrasherThe information you give is long over due, but I have to give you credit for finally posting it.
[b]1) Games won / ratings up and down all over the place.
May paint a picture. May be symptomatic. But it "proves" nothing, other than the fact that the player's rating has gone up or down.
2) Download the PGN then make a move - what about the reverse.
So what? Could be using an offline analysis board. Completely inconclusive. The ...[text shortened]... for an innocent player to be banned. But that is the way the Game Mods and Site Admin prefer it.[/b]
I personally did not find any evidence against Exy to support cheating, but I admit I do not have the Winboard engine to compare with.
I sincerely hope that we can move the site forward.
Cheers
Originally posted by GatecrasherApart from the small piece that I mentioned earlier, its a very good post.
[b]1) Games won / ratings up and down all over the place.
May paint a picture. May be symptomatic. But it "proves" nothing, other than the fact that the player's rating has gone up or down.
2) Download the PGN then make a move - what about the reverse.
So what? Could be using an offline analysis board. Completely inconclusive. The ...[text shortened]... for an innocent player to be banned. But that is the way the Game Mods and Site Admin prefer it.[/b]
Thanks,
D