Originally posted by David TebbAnd I agree with no1marauder that the current system is inadequate.
Blimey! It's the weekend. I've been up to my neck in clan league and tournament games. I already spent most of yesterday scrutinising hundreds of games of suspected cheats, and now people are demanding that I respond to their PMs... Give me a break!
Michelle, I'll send you a PM later. There is a backlog of cases for the games mods to deal with, as ...[text shortened]... ong players who have access to one or two Chessbase engines are particularly welcome!
Dave
Dave, a few volunteers won't do the job. Your mod team was never set up properly to handle the task. It's no fault of your own or anybody else's fault. The problem is that it's a new concept and nobody knew how to impiment it.
I can tell you how to set up a system that will work. It involves setting up an organized group that is trained in their task. It's up to you to tell Russ you want to do this.
* You need a leader to dispurse the work and priorities. Since you are the main person involved, you must be the leader.
* You need a team of 9-12 dedicated people who only take work from the leader.
- They must be rated above 1700 and have at least 1 chess program.
- They must be anonymous to the RHP membership.
- They must get training for their task.
You cannot have the RHP membership sending games and notes to a group of people and having that group trying to respond separately. The games and notes should to be sent only to the leader. Then he decides who to send each game to in his team.
* In all, your team will have to have access to 9-12 different, major chess programs.
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Originally posted by arrakisOk, thanks for the input. If we could get a team of 9-12 game mods that would be great. The problem is going to be finding that many volunteers. If they have to be rated over 1700 and own a major chess program, that limits the number of potential volunteers even further.
And I agree with no1marauder that the current system is inadequate.
Dave, a few volunteers won't do the job. Your mod team was never set up properly to handle the task. It's no fault of your own or anybody else's fault. The problem is that it's a new concept and nobody knew how to impiment it.
I can tell you how to set up a system that will work. ...[text shortened]...
* In all, your team will have to have access to 9-12 different, major chess programs.
I don't want to discuss any of the processes or methods used by the games mods. We have a system, which no doubt could be improved, which on the whole seems to work. The big problem is that at the moment there are only 2 games mods plus Russ. If we could recruit just a few more competent, dedicated people into the team, it would make a tremendous difference.
Dave
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Originally posted by arrakisGreat - RHP secret police holding their little inquisitions in the shadows and deciding who is guilty and who is not. This gets more Kafka-esque by the minute. Is the accused to be allowed to defend him/herself? If there are game mods they must be known and accountable and must publish and be prepared to defend the reasons for anyone's account cancellation.
- They must be anonymous to the RHP membership.
The RHP Stasi stand to wreck the site far worse than a few people using engines. The number of active users is growing quickly - there obviously isn't widespread dissatisfaction with the site as it is. I suggest to those who keep hinting they will leave if they don't get their way on this that they just f^ck off to those sites they say take the issue more seriously. Good riddance.
Originally posted by dfm65In this respect I totally agree with you. The mods should'nt be secret.
Great - RHP secret police holding their little inquisitions in the shadows and deciding who is guilty and who is not. This gets more Kafka-esque by the minute. Is the accused to be allowed to defend him/herself? If there are game mods they must be known and accountable and must publish and be prepared to defend the reasons for anyone's account cancellation.
...[text shortened]... is that they just f^ck off to those sites they say take the issue more seriously. Good riddance.
Originally posted by dfm65I enjoy your wit and charm dfm65 🙂 But, every successful internet site has to deal with the problem of people using computers to make their moves. I was a computer buster for ICC for years so I know how these things work. A trained group of people actually not only protect the general members, they also protect the people who are accused of cheating but don't.
Great - RHP secret police holding their little inquisitions in the shadows and deciding who is guilty and who is not. This gets more Kafka-esque by the minute. Is the accused to be allowed to defend him/herself? If there are game mods they must be known and accountable and must publish and be prepared to defend the reasons for anyone's account cancellation.
...[text shortened]... si that they just f^ck off to those sites they say take the issue more seriosuly. Good riddance.
I would like to help RHP set up a good system. If Russ will step in and give us all some support this thing would take off. All the members need is to know that Russ is willing to take the big step - which involves taking on voluntary members who will be protected from harrassment by remaining anonymous.
Which is worse? Having a system that isn't doing the job, or creating a system that is known to work?
Let me give an example. As one of the top busters at ICC I was asked by the leader to check a game where a class B player drew a GM giving a simul. Everyone wanted to hang this kid cause they figured there was NO WAY a class B player could draw a GM, not even in a simul. Of course we won't discuss the procedures used to substantiate proof, but I will say this: I spent 3 days running the analysis and reviewing the information. At the end of 3 days I had concrete evidence that the class B player DID NOT use a computer program! 😲
So you see, having good tools, a little knowledge and some training is a win-win situation.
Dave, I revise my statement about having volunteers rated over 1700. You could actually have a structured system like this:
----------Leader-------- determines priorities and makes final decisions based on recommendations by his team.
-------Level 1 mods----- players rated above 1700 who go over the analysis submitted by Level 2 players.
-----Level 2 mods----- run games thru computers and report suspicious games to Level 1 team.
I am 100% certain that if Russ gave this idea support the team of players would PM you to join. I do not believe you will get these people though if you:
1) ask for a popular vote.
2) do not protect them by leaving the names unlisted.
And finally... you'd be surprised how many pro-volunteers have chess programs. 🙂
Originally posted by arrakisA rec from me.
I enjoy your wit and charm dfm65 🙂 But, every successful internet site has to deal with the problem of people using computers to make their moves. I was a computer buster for ICC for years so I know how these things work. A trained group of people actually not only protect the general members, they also protect the people who are accused of cheating but do ...[text shortened]... listed.
And finally... you'd be surprised how many pro-volunteers have chess programs. 🙂
I completely support the plan proposed by arrakis. I would even volunteer to be one of the "dumb" (level 2) mods. I'd be willing to donate some of my time, and have 4 engines, and am competent in their use.
Originally posted by dfm65So you're happy playing engines. That's your perogative.
Great - RHP secret police holding their little inquisitions in the shadows and deciding who is guilty and who is not. This gets more Kafka-esque by the minute. Is the accused to be allowed to defend him/herself? If there are game mods they must be known and accountable and must publish and be prepared to defend the reasons for anyone's account cancellation.
...[text shortened]... is that they just f^ck off to those sites they say take the issue more seriously. Good riddance.
The Cheat Police would have to be accountable for their decisions. Individual members would not. Individual members, who donate hours of their free time to improving the site, should not be open to abuse for banning popular engine users. If people want to abuse somebody, then abuse should be directed at a body of members, not at individual members. Do you not see the sensibility of this, or are you blinded in your desire to help engine users, and negate any efforts to hinder them?
If you're happy playing Fritz, then f^ck off, pay $30 for fritz and never have to pay subscriptions again. Good riddance.
D
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If the makers of Fritz etc would come on board and take a stand against their products being used to cheat, they could release a bare-bones version of their product that would analyze games on host computers in the background while the user was doing other things.
The idea would be to have site members volunteer some of their unused computer cycles to analyze games. It could be implemented along the lines of BOINC (Berkeley Open Infrastructure for Network Computing http://boinc.berkeley.edu/), or perhaps even use BOINC to manage the process.
What would happen is volunteers would download the bare-bones Frtitz (it wouldn't be directly accessable to the volunteer) and after that, download a quantity of games to be stored in a cache and analyzed, looking for whatever qualities the site administration thinks is signifigant. In addition, the site administration would decide which games would be available for volunteer analysis.
Once the volunteer computer has analyzed its cache of games, it would upload the results and download a new batch of games. Any results showing a high match-up to Fritz (or whatever criteria looked for) would be analyzed by top-rated people such as Mr. Tebb.
I realize all this is probably beyond our immediate conception, just thought I'd throw the idea out for future reference if the game manufacturers ever did decide to release their engines to combat cheating.
KK
PS Volunteeres could have a little Sherlock Holmes icon to go with the star ...
I see no reason for the Game Mods to be anonymous; if accused users harass them the Site Admins could take proper disciplinary measures depending on the severity of the "harassment". I
also proposed many months ago that users being investigated be informed of that fact, be presented with the evidence against them, be able to present defense evidence and arguments and be allowed to admit engine use and be placed on some sort of probation. I also believe that usernames who have admitted or been found by overwhelming evidence to have been engine users be publically named as they are on other sites. Other than that, Arrakis' proposal seems reasonable to me; if the Site Admins are serious I see no reason to believe that there will be a shortage of volunteers: there certainly was no such shortage back in January when the Game Mods were created (dfm apparently missed that memo).
Originally posted by RagnorakSpoken like a true peace-monger, or is that spelt 'hypocrite'?
If you're happy playing Fritz, then f^ck off, pay $30 for fritz and never have to pay subscriptions again. Good riddance.
D
I already own Fritz 8. I enjoy playing against it, though it is a tough opponent. I am sure that playing against it has improved my chess. Therefore I don't mind playing a few more games against it. At any rate, playing internet chess is small potatoes. You people really need to get some perspective.
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Originally posted by dfm65*I* need to get me some of them potatoes! 😵
Spoken like a true peace-monger, or is that spelt 'hypocrite'?
I already own Fritz 8. I enjoy playing against it, though it is a tough opponent. I am sure that playing against it has improved my chess. Therefore I don't mind playing a f ...[text shortened]... s small potatoes. You people really need to get some perspective.
Originally posted by dfm65So using somebodies aggressive sentence structure and wording against them in an internet forum is now being hypocritical if one claims to prefer peace to war in the real world?
1. read your title
2. read your post
3. repeat as necessary...
Man, you're a bigger idiot than I took you for.
D