Originally posted by FMF
That Cameron resigned instantly, with 4 years left of his mandate, and handed a decision about who should be the PM at this time to 90,000 members of his party, will have been absolutely scandalous IF the very first thing the new PM does ISN'T to call an immediate General Election.

I agree.

Originally posted by FMF
I certainly think a case can be made for a democratic deficit but it is surely that legislators of other countries passed legislation that affected the British people rather than because of what commissioners did. It would be like slamming British democracy because it has an unelected civil service. 😉

Perhaps we are talking about the same thing, but the body that sets the legislative agenda in the EU is the commission.

Originally posted by phil3000
Before the Scottish referendum most Scots that wanted to leave the union cited Norway as an example of a relatively small populated country that is doing well economically .
Norway is not a member of the EU .
When you get independence from the union ,and I hope you do, Scotland will have to try a strike its own deal with the EU ( if the EU is still around ...[text shortened]... nd there will be no free prescriptions and university free -bees from Westminster .
Good luck .

Yeah, maybe Scotland can turn into one of the most expensive places in Europe as well.

The UK will probably end up with a similar relationship to the EU as Norway, if they think they're going to keep their trade agreements without having freedom of movement they're very much mistaken. It's the people who voted to leave because they thought 'those Europeans were taking our jobs' that annoy me most. The UK have an aging population, it needs people to come in from other countries and work to fuel the economy and pay taxes.

One thing that could change if they allow freedom to travel and not freedom to work is that the same people come to the UK but end up working illegally in farms or factories, the jobs that local people don't want to do and get paid cash in hand without paying any taxes.

Originally posted by FMF
The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, who will extricate the country - or at least begin to do so - from the European Union, will now be selected by a simple majority of the - what is it now? - the 175,000 paid up members of the Conservative Party around the towns and shires of Britain, so I think there might be more than one undemocratic mechanism in play at the moment. 🙂

Oh well, not even the 175,000 will get to choose, it seems. Nobody gets to choose, aside from the backroom choosers and their manoeuvres that have coughed up an unopposed May.

Originally posted by Trev33
Thanks for making it cheaper for me to visit N. Ireland but otherwise what a bunch racist, narrow-minded, gullible idiots.

Why don't you go join the EU and leave everyone else alone?

Originally posted by divegeester
There are number of topics you bring up but I think you may be conflating some and confusing other, such as your "gut wrenching sense of loss", "spiritual home" and "mourning" with your determination to not return to the country of your birth. I am afraid you have therefore abdicated your right to feel this way, at least in terms of a debating tactic. Th ...[text shortened]... nger are. The EU is not Europe, the people of the democratic nation states of Europe ARE Europe.

In reply to your post; I hold a UK passport (which is currently also an EU passport, but perhaps not for much longer, I fear). I also have a home and business interests in England, and pay income tax there, which I think gives me the right to feel however I feel on this subject, and express my feelings as I see fit. I never intended my post to be a debating tactic, it was, as I think I made clear, a personal perspective, and it was not intended to change anybody's mind. And by the way I have no 'determination' not to return home, I think I said that I have no intention of so doing in the foreseeable future, which are two quite different things, so please don't attempt to misquote me. I cannot do what I do here, there, so I will stay here as long as I am doing what I do, after which I may well return home at quite short notice, and I would like to return to a united Kingdom, sitting within a united Europe, but neither of these are any longer a given. So be as harsh as you like, but be careful what you call true; it is only your truth, and none of us should claim a monopoly on truth.

As for your second paragraph, I wonder what made you think that my post had anything to do with you or your argument. I understand the issues well enough; the unelected Euro - MPs are a well - trodden path in this regard, and I accept the problem. The question which the British voting public were asked to address was whether it was better to remain and prosper in this imperfect institution, (does a perfect institution exist?) or whether to leave, with the resultant and now all too apparent problems which the leaving brings with it. And as for racism, who said anything about racism? Certainly I didn't, but perhaps by then you were not replying directly to my post any more? Who but you knows, but just for the record I don't actually think you are racist, and those who do I think miss the point of your argument. Indeed you seem to hold our fellow Europeans in some affection, which makes it harder for the likes of me to understand why the likes of you are so eager for us to turn our backs on them in so blatant an act of selfish self - interest as to leave the union. All of the countries in the EU face the same dilemma, and dilemmas are better faced together, don't you think? And as for the 'smokescreen' argument, well I had to laugh at that one. So anybody who as a result of our likely and imminent departure from the European Union loses their job, or sees their savings evaporate, or their house devalue, or their benefit or pension decrease needn't be concerned; it's not really happening, it's just a smokescreen....

So anyway it's been good to talk, and as a final word from me, in my line of work I meet and dine with more mainland Europeans and so on in a year than most British people meet in a lifetime, and I can hereby pronounce that nobody that I have met wants Britain to leave, and so I feel sad at our leaving. And by the way, there really is no need to call me sir; our opinions may differ, and in this matter there is no absolute right or wrong, and people are pragmatic and resourceful, and life will go on, but I don't regard myself as being any better than you, and I hope the feeling is mutual.

Originally posted by Indonesia Phil
I cannot do what I do here, there

Uh... and what would that be?

Originally posted by Indonesia Phil
In reply to your post; I hold a UK passport (which is currently also an EU passport, but perhaps not for much longer, I fear). I also have a home and business interests in England, and pay income tax there, which I think gives me the right to feel however I feel on this subject, and express my feelings as I see fit. I never intended my post to be a de ...[text shortened]... go on, but I don't regard myself as being any better than you, and I hope the feeling is mutual.

Your perspective and opinion are fine, I was being harsh and I apologise for it.

We do differ but perhaps not as much as it may appear. I have an affection for my fellow Europeans and consider myself to be a European. I just don't like the EU. I find it strange that there is a general support for Scottish independence from the UK and yet UK independence from the EU is frowned upon by some.

You speak in quite emotive terms, in both of your posts; talking about the UK "turning its back on Europe" etc. While your feelings may be real, they are completely misrepresenting the UKs intent and what will actually happen. The U.K. Has voted for independence from the EU and you will see, given time, that we have not and will not "turn our backs" on Europe.

Originally posted by Seitse
Uh... and what would that be?

You know; stuff.

Originally posted by divegeester
Your perspective and opinion are fine, I was being harsh and I apologise for it.

We do differ but perhaps not as much as it may appear. I have an affection for my fellow Europeans and consider myself to be a European. I just don't like the EU. I find it strange that there is a general support for Scottish independence from the UK and yet UK independe ...[text shortened]... m the EU and you will see, given time, that we have not and will not "turn our backs" on Europe.

Your 'chess name' implies that you are a scuba - diver, is that right? If so we should dive together sometime, then there would be no difference between us whatsoever....

Originally posted by Indonesia Phil
You know; stuff.

Like... uh... stuff, "stuff", stuff, or stuff?

Originally posted by Seitse
Like... uh... stuff, "stuff", stuff, or [b]stuff?[/b]

No; nothing like that; what do you take me for?

The post that was quoted here has been removed

You're right on the button there...Read my profile, I think I mention it there, but don't tell anyone, okay?

Originally posted by Indonesia Phil
You're right on the button there...Read my profile, I think I mention it there, but don't tell anyone, okay?

I don't read profiles.

So, what is it that you can do there that you can't back home? Surf?