Originally posted by divegeesterI am always amused that most of my 'Remain' friends also support reform of the House of Lords, on the basis that unelected people should not have so much influence over the laws we all have to abide my.
Neil Kinnock was appointed an EU commissioner after losing two UK general elections; the people voted him out, but the EU appointed him.
Yet the Commission has far greater powers than the House of Lords.
The reality, I have always suspected, is that many people who support Remain simply prefer the type of politics that tend to dominate Europe.
So tacitly admitting that if they cannot achieve their means democratically, they are happy to do so undemocratically. As demonstrated by the fact that they are already agitating to ignore the referendum result.
Originally posted by divegeesterKinnock was a bureaucrat appointed to implement democratic decisions. Equating that with what he stood for in the UK is a bit of a red herring, albeit one that has a good plausible ring to it.
Neil Kinnock was appointed an EU commissioner after losing two UK general elections; the people voted him out, but the EU appointed him.
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Originally posted by FMFHe was indeed a beurocrat; the EU commissioners are all beurocrats. What Kinnock was responsible for in the EU is somewhat irrelevant, it is the manner of his (and all EU commissioners) appointment that is of interest. Also I contest that the "decisions" and the decision making process is democratic. However, I accept that people have differing views on what a democratic process looks like.
Kinnock was a bureaucrat appointed to implement democratic decisions. Equating that with what he stood for in the UK is a bit of a red herring, albeit one that has a good plausible ring to it.
Originally posted by divegeesterNo. You tried to compare/conflate a bureaucrat with an elected representative, disingenuously I would say [in view of your obvious political literacy] in order to make a Daily Mail-esque debating point. The Brexit case can be made without resort to things like The Kinnock Meme, I think. 😉
He was indeed a beurocrat; the EU commissioners are all beurocrats. What Kinnock was responsible for in the EU is somewhat irrelevant, it is the manner of his (and all EU commissioners) appointment that is of interest.
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Originally posted by FMFNothing of the sort and I am not being disingenuous; mistaken perhaps, and open to being shown otherwise. My point is that those who make the decisions and hold power should be elected. Kinnock's mandate as a commission is possibly not the best example as he was as unpopular there as he was here.
No. You tried to compare/conflate a bureaucrat with an elected representative, disingenuously I would say [in view of your obvious political literacy] in order to make a Daily Mail-esque debating point. The Brexit case can be made without resort to things like The Kinnock Meme, I think. 😉
10 Jul 16
Originally posted by divegeesterKinnock's role ~ being a commissioner and not a legislator or minister ~ was to manage the implementation of the decisions made by those who held power and not to "make the decisions and hold power" as you continue to suggest. 😉
Nother of the sort and I an not being disingenuous; mistaken perhaps, and open to being shown otherwise. My point is that those who make the decisions and hold power should be elected. Kinnock's mandate as a commission is possibly not the best example as he was as unpopular there as he was here.
Originally posted by Rank outsiderThe Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, who will extricate the country - or at least begin to do so - from the European Union, will now be selected by a simple majority of the - what is it now? - the 175,000 paid up members of the Conservative Party around the towns and shires of Britain, so I think there might be more than one undemocratic mechanism in play at the moment. 🙂
So tacitly admitting that if they cannot achieve their means democratically, they are happy to do so undemocratically. As demonstrated by the fact that they are already agitating to ignore the referendum result.
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10 Jul 16
Originally posted by FMFThe EU commission (commissioners) is certainly the body that drives legislation. The role of the commission has changed over the years and without checking I'm not certain that a commissioner at Kinnock's time had the same power. If not, then he was not a good example.
Kinnock's role ~ being a commissioner and not a legislator or minister ~ was to manage the implementation of the decisions made by those who held power and not to "make the decisions and hold power" as you continue to suggest. 😉
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Originally posted by FMFIf there is a change of PM there should be a general election. Nevertheless, the process of executing article 50 is not as parsimonious as "the PM extricating the country", as you know. There will be a lengthy process taking 2 years or more, at least, during which time there will be a cascade of new trading legislation and negotiations.
The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, who will extricate the country - or at least begin to do so - from the European Union, will now be selected by a simple majority of the - what is it now? - the 175,000 paid up members of the Conservative Party around the towns and shires of Britain, so I think there might be more than one undemocratic mechanism in play at the moment. 🙂
10 Jul 16
Originally posted by divegeesterI certainly think a case can be made for a democratic deficit but it is surely that legislators of other countries passed legislation that affected the British people rather than because of what commissioners did. It would be like slamming British democracy because it has an unelected civil service. 😉
The EU commission (commissioners) is certainly the body that drives legislation. The role of the commission has changed over the years and without checking I'm not certain that a commissioner at Kinnock's time had the same power. If not, then he was not a good example.
Originally posted by divegeesterThat Cameron resigned instantly, with 4 years left of his mandate, and handed a decision about who should be the PM at this time to 90,000 members of his party, will have been absolutely scandalous IF the very first thing the new PM does ISN'T to call an immediate General Election.
If there is a change of PM there should be a general election. Nevertheless, the process of executing article 50 is not as parsimonious as "the PM extricating the country", as you know. There will be a lengthy process taking 2 years or more, at least, during which time there will be a cascade of new trading legislation and negotiations.
10 Jul 16
Originally posted by tunnockBefore the Scottish referendum most Scots that wanted to leave the union cited Norway as an example of a relatively small populated country that is doing well economically .
I can see no good reason to leave the EU and is a vote based on lies and misinformation really democracy? As far as I'm concerned the UK has run it"s course as a political entity and as a Scot I hope we'll be saying adieu asap.
Norway is not a member of the EU .
When you get independence from the union ,and I hope you do, Scotland will have to try a strike its own deal with the EU ( if the EU is still around ) and there will be no free prescriptions and university free -bees from Westminster .
Good luck .
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10 Jul 16
Originally posted by phil3000Norway is however a member of the EEA with free access to the internal market and free movement of people. Examples of European countries which are not are Albania, Macedonia and Serbia. Maybe the UK will be able to have some free trade agreements with them?
Before the Scottish referendum most Scots that wanted to leave the union cited Norway as an example of a relatively small populated country that is doing well economically .
Norway is not a member of the EU .
When you get independence from the union ,and I hope you do, Scotland will have to try a strike its own deal with the EU ( if the EU is still around ...[text shortened]... nd there will be no free prescriptions and university free -bees from Westminster .
Good luck .