kingcaptured booted - Section 3(b)

Originally posted by z00t
I don't play or advocate for anyone to play the King Gambit but I don't think it is usual for your King to wander like that.

Since you're the expert, is it normal for my king to wander like this?

Game 2820153

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
My king is wandering a bit in this KG. Game 3357510 is still in progress after I moved too quickly early on and made an error and now I am really struggling although not without counter play.

[[b]No comments - in progress]

I find this often happens with me in KGs usually because I make a stupid mistake. Incidently I do advocate the KG - its a solid fun opening with wild tactical play.[/b]

I don't want to say anything except for I bet 50 dollars on white. 😏

Originally posted by ChessJester
I don't want to say anything except for I bet 50 dollars on white. 😏

I might just take that bet!

but can I trust you to pay up when black wins without yelling fraud? 😉

Originally posted by zebano
Since you're the expert, is it normal for my king to wander like this?

Game 2820153

As I said, Kings often wander in the KG.

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
As I said, Kings often wander in the KG.

I don't think you are in bad position at all. Yes your king is exposed a bit, but there is not much serious threat to him until some material starts clearing out.

Originally posted by Yuga
He used an engine, Fritz. Even if one were to disregard the high correlation, there are very obvious examples of his engine use such as this (although obviously cases such as the one presented are rare, with the rook left trapped behind enemy lines).

Game 2156944

I think the number of engine users in the top tier of RHP has somewhat diminished, at least within the last year...

Why show a game where the engine loses?

Originally posted by ketchuplover
Why show a game where the engine loses?

Well, an engine user using a strong engine generally wins, so when it loses, it's an interesting study. Notably engine mistakes are almost always never so blatant. Usually in post-game analysis I find that engine mistakes are most likely to occur directly out of the opening between moves ~ 13 and 20. Although I do not understand why this seems to be the case; perhaps it is difficult for engines to see long-term effects of early game planning, especially in doubled edged position (Fritz has problems evaluating some KID and Schevinegen lines for instance). I am not strong enough to understand the positional nuances of an engine, but consider Weyerstrass success with the QID against banned engine users (nicohuyboom = Fritz, et. al.)

Originally posted by Yuga
Well, an engine user using a strong engine generally wins, so when it loses, it's an interesting study. Notably engine mistakes are almost always never so blatant. Usually in post-game analysis I find that engine mistakes are most likely to occur directly out of the opening between moves ~ 13 and 20. Although I do not understand why this seems to be the case ...[text shortened]... der Weyerstrass success with the QID against banned engine users (nicohuyboom = Fritz, et. al.)

I've often wondered if the strong players spot engine users early enough to plan against it? getting a suspicion from strange opening moves, then checking out opponent's other games to make sure, and proceeding to suitable deep endgame with a well known positional solution. so that the engine can't calculate deep enough but the strong player sees that upcoming won position from miles away? stuff like that. -I had a situation like that, but I realized it too late, after I had already committed to an endgame the engine could play well. and still, he let me penetrate his position like no strong player would ever risk, instead of killing my counterplay as any strong human player would've done.

Originally posted by wormwood
I've often wondered if the strong players spot engine users early enough to plan against it? getting a suspicion from strange opening moves, then checking out opponent's other games to make sure, and proceeding to suitable deep endgame with a well known positional solution. so that the engine can't calculate deep enough but the strong player sees that upcom ...[text shortened]... would ever risk, instead of killing my counterplay as any strong human player would've done.

I suppose if one were to play a known engine user multiple times, one could plan for it. But engines often have an opening book, so that they may deal with responses differently.

Opening preparation is useful but one still has to find the moves over the board. I've had a few instances where I knew that my opponent had seriously erred in a line I thoroughly have studied but I didn't know the refutation. Like 12...Qg5 should lose by force in Game 2971228 (all credit to Black, a strong human player, for playing solid defense), assuming that White can find the right moves, but one cannot determine that unless one studies 15-20 moves down all lines. I do not think substantial opening preparation has much impact on the final result, especially in correspondence chess. Winning a game due to opening prep is the exception rather than the norm, even at the highest levels.

But I think a strong player may figure out to deal with an engine user. Consider the fortress (pawn wall effective against engines) and sham sac (requiring fairly extensive calculation) in these two games.

Game 1682901
Game 1682902

Originally posted by Yuga
He used an engine, Fritz. Even if one were to disregard the high correlation, there are very obvious examples of his engine use such as this (although obviously cases such as the one presented are rare, with the rook left trapped behind enemy lines).

Game 2156944

I think the number of engine users in the top tier of RHP has somewhat diminished, at least within the last year...

What is it that make this so obviously an engine user?. I'm not disagreeing that it is - just trying to learn how to recognise it.

Originally posted by Yuga
Well, an engine user using a strong engine generally wins, so when it loses, it's an interesting study. Notably engine mistakes are almost always never so blatant. Usually in post-game analysis I find that engine mistakes are most likely to occur directly out of the opening between moves ~ 13 and 20. Although I do not understand why this seems to be the case ...[text shortened]... der Weyerstrass success with the QID against banned engine users (nicohuyboom = Fritz, et. al.)

It may be the case that the point where the opening book runs out is the most problematical area for an engine. The opening book may have taken the engine into areas that a human player would judge as being equal or better but the engine is uncomfortable in. The latest version of Crafty has an option to allow the engine to calculate much longer for the first move out of book as partial compensation for this effect. I don't know if it works since I use a Mac and binaries are only available for PC. Once the source becomes available I will be able to compile and check it out.

Originally posted by zebano
Since you're the expert, is it normal for my king to wander like this?

Game 2820153

I'm not an expert on the KG. If you can find any top GMs who play that trash, find their games and show me how many wander their Kings like that. If Steinitz or whoever the old champs who played the KG, find any of their games where their King wandered like that.

I sure you'll find none.

Originally posted by z00t
I'm not an expert on the KG. If you can find any top GMs who play that trash, find their games and show me how many wander their Kings like that. If Steinitz or whoever the old champs who played the KG, find any of their games where their King wandered like that.

I sure you'll find none.

Spassky!

and more recently a certain N Short

http://www.redhotpawn.com/gamesexplorer/index.php?movelist=e2e4e7e5f2f4e5f4g1f3g7g5h2h4g5g4f3e5d7d6e5g4g8f6g4f6d8f6b1c3b8c6f1b5&flip=0&co=-&u=-1&c=GM

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
Spassky!

and more recently a certain N Short

http://www.redhotpawn.com/gamesexplorer/index.php?movelist=e2e4e7e5f2f4e5f4g1f3g7g5h2h4g5g4f3e5d7d6e5g4g8f6g4f6d8f6b1c3b8c6f1b5&flip=0&co=-&u=-1&c=GM

Give a game where the King wanders like it did with the guy in this thread. That is not "part" of the KG.