King's Gambit and Grob Busted!

Originally posted by masscat
I play the Grob on occasion and I keep checking this thread to see the refutation. So far...nothing. Not even a recommended best line for Black. So, where's the refutation?

I don't want to put an end to the fun, but, take it from me, the Grob is a poor opening choice for white, which is why hardly any strong players ever play it. Of course, there's no reason why it can't be played at lower levels, and some players obviously enjoy playing the positions that arise. But this doesn't alter the reality that it is objectively not very good, in my opinion for two reasons. Firstly, white should be trying to make black play accurately to equalise in the opening. The Grob simply doesn't do this. Secondly, the move is a self-inflicted weakness on the kingside. Unfortunately pawns can't move backwards.
Now the King's Gambit is another strory...

Originally posted by Northern Lad
[b]I don't want to put an end to the fun, but, take it from me, the Grob is a poor opening choice for white, which is why hardly any strong players ever play it. Of course, there's no reason why it can't be played at lower levels, and some players obviously enjoy playing the positions that arise.b]

I don’t think anybody is saying it’s “good” but it is quite playable below the master level.

[Event "CCLA Social e-mail"]
[Date "2007"]
[White "Masscat"]
[Black "Wally"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A00"]
[WhiteElo "2047"]
[BlackElo "1810"]

1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 c6 3. g5 e5 4. h4 Bf5 5. d3 Bc5 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. e4 Be6 8. f4 exf4
9. d4 Bb4 10. Ne2 Bg4 11. Qd3 f3 12. Bxf3 Bxf3 13. Qxf3 dxe4 14. Qxe4 Qd5 (Played with a draw offer) 15. Bd2 Qxe4 16. Nxe4 Bxd2+ 17. Kxd2 O-O 18. Nd6 b6 19. Rae1 Rd8 20. Ng3 Kf8



21.Nxf7 Kxf7 22. Rhf1+ Ke8 23. Nf5 Rd7 24. Nxg7+ Kd8 25. Rf8+ Kc7 26. Ne8+ Kb7 27.Nf6 Rc7 28. h5 Nd5 29. Ne8 Rd7 30. g6 hxg6 31. hxg6 Nc7 32. g7 Rxd4+ 33. Kc1 Rg4 34. Re7 1-0

Originally posted by masscat
I play the Grob on occasion and I keep checking this thread to see the refutation. So far...nothing. Not even a recommended best line for Black. So, where's the refutation?

Game 3078056 (Grob)
Dragon Fire v Squelchbelch

I think the logical way I played the Grob here, whilst not being a refutation, is a stronger way to counter this odd opening than the standard 1.g4...d5 2.Bg2...Bxg4 3.c4...c6 4.cxd5...cxd5 5.Qb3

Ok, after
1.g4!?
I played
1...e5
This gets out of book quicker than the 1...d5 lines & also made far more sense to me because d5 would be an immediate target for white's fianchettoed Bg2. 1...e5 also opens more lines for me & I had an early plan to counter with a strong hold on the dark squares
2.Bg2
as expected
2...Nc6
Defending e5 & I now have a firm hold on the d5 square
3.c4
Preventing an early ...d5 & opening lines for his queen
3...Bc5
Continuing my dark square counter-strategy & placing the bishop on an active square, aiming at the weak f2
4.Nc3
Logical reinforcement of the central light squares
4...h5
I felt like I had to play this sooner or later. White must take & then I have a 1/2 open file for my rook at the cost of KS pawn structure
5.gxh5...Rxh5
6.e3
Attacking my rook with his queen
6...Qg5
This serves a few functions. It defends the rook, threatens the damn Bg2 & also further strengthens the dark squares for me
7.Qf3
Defending the g2 bishop & activating the queen
7...Nb4!
Forcing white's hand because of the possible c2 fork on king/rook. b4 is a great outpost for my knight. I expected 8.Kf1 then a later a3 (not great for QS pawn structure) & I could move the knight to d3 or back to c6
8.Nd5!?
This is a remarkable move & not what I expected. White ignores my threat & counters with a potential fork of his own & he would also go up a pawn
8...Nxd5
Forced, as explained above
9.cxd5
White now has doubled c-pawns
9...d6
The simple advance stuffs white's otherwise strong h1-a8 diagonal & opens-up my own light-square bishop.
I feel like I'm in the ascendancy now & against a player rated at least 300 points higher than me - all because he chose a handicapping opening & I hadn't played into it's few strengths
10.Qg3
I think Dragon Fire had few good moves & just expected to exchange-down & win in the endgame.
Which is exactly what happened!
10...Qxg3
I'm happy to exchange because my position looks far better than my opponent's
11.hxg3
11...Rxh1
12.Bxh1
12...Nf6
I bring my knight into the game.

My short-term plan is to play Bf5 or Bg4, castle QS & stick my rook on h8.

White to move


Positionally sound here, a player of Dragon Fire's own level would probably have gone on to win as black.

Originally posted by Northern Lad
I don't want to put an end to the fun, but, take it from me, the Grob is a poor opening choice for white, which is why hardly any strong players ever play it. Of course, there's no reason why it can't be played at lower levels, and some players obviously enjoy playing the positions that arise. But this doesn't alter the reality that it is objectively no ...[text shortened]... de. Unfortunately pawns can't move backwards.
Now the King's Gambit is another strory...

If white "should be trying to make black play accurately to equalise in the opening" then what will you say about Reti and other opening in which white does not pretend to get advantage in opening, but trying to get middle game positions which they like to play? From my own experience I can say that white can afford in their first move everything and reach equality - in practice black have problems to get something real from this "weakness on the kingside".

I will definitely take a look at this when I get home. I could take a walk out in the shop and borrow a chess set from one of the guys but my boss is kind of funny about people playing chess except during lunch.

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
Game 3078056 (Grob)
Dragon Fire v Squelchbelch

I think the logical way I played the Grob here, whilst not being a refutation, is a stronger way to counter this odd opening than the standard 1.g4...d5 2.Bg2...Bxg4 3.c4...c6 4.cxd5...cxd5 5.Qb3

Ok, after
[b]1.g4!?
I played
1...e5
This gets out of book quicker than the 1...d5 ...[text shortened]... here, a player of Dragon Fire's own level would probably have gone on to win as black.[/b]

Yours was one of the more tricky games I played with the Grob but I still won it. 😏

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
Yours was one of the more tricky games I played with the Grob [b]but I still won it. 😏[/b]

... because you know your middlegame/endgame strategy, which compensated for the opening handicap.
😛

I still think playing with my basic plan of
1) 1...e5 open lines/more out of book/no target for Bg2
2) dark square counter-strategy/try to block the long light-square diagonal
3) play h5 earliesh & look to use the open files
4) castle 0-0-0 & put the rook on h8 if the a8 one has been exchanged
is a sound & logical way of countering the Grob.

At my level I really can’t recall winning/losing any games as a direct result of the choice of opening, but then my opponent’s are rarely at the level where little nuances matter a whole lot. The Grob worked against "Wally" because I outrated him by over 200 points whereas the book line Sicilian I played against the 2485 guy hasn’t worked out too well. I’m thinking it’s because he’s a lot better than me and has nothing to do with my opening choice.

Originally posted by masscat
At my level I really can’t recall winning/losing any games as a direct result of the choice of opening, but then my opponent’s are rarely at the level where little nuances matter a whole lot. The Grob worked against "Wally" because I outrated him by over 200 points whereas the book line Sicilian I played against the 2485 guy hasn’t worked out too well. I’m thinking it’s because he’s a lot better than me and has nothing to do with my opening choice.

I disagree - if you specialise in a relatively obscure opening that has very few decent lines for your opponent, then your superior knowledge of the motifs of that opening will stand you in good stead.
You may well beat opponents that you otherwise would not be able to - I have a few times already with some of the openings I use - especially if they don't use a DB or use it badly.

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
I disagree - if you specialise in a relatively obscure opening that has very few decent lines for your opponent, then your superior knowledge of the motifs of that opening will stand you in good stead.
You may well beat opponents that you otherwise would not be able to - I have a few times already with some of the openings I use - especially if they don't use a DB or use it badly.

I doubt playing a surprise opening will offset a rating difference of over 400 points esp. when the guy is rated over 2400. Players at that level are far too good to be beaten just because you have an opening advantage. You still have to outplay them in the middle & end game…easier said than done. I’m thinking of one game where an IM blundered a N at move 14: I lost. :'( Or the game against a former US Champ competitor who dropped a P in the opening and gave me a strong initiative: I lost. :'( Then in finals of the same CC tmt. followed the latest line that gave me an advantage, but then he played an improvement on the book: I lost. :'( I could go on, but you get the idea.

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
The Grob is fun and always you must modify your opening according to the strength of the opposition. Against weaker opponents go for the quick kill but against really tough opposition perhaps a slow and safe build up is a better choice.

There is nothing wrong in choosing opponents carefully if you want to play the Grob.

I always get a kick out of you posting your crushing games against specially picked opponents and then claiming you are

X and X with such and such opening.

Always makes my day.

You better start playing 1.f3 followed by 2.Kf2 against everything black throws at you. I have a feeling you will have better results with it. It's a solid solid opening.

Originally posted by Ramiri15
I've posted these games before in DF's Grob thread.

Game 1577086
Game 2184078

The Grob is indeed playable against >2000 opposition, provided you know what you're doing.

I've seen those but DF isn't playing in those games.

I want to see his Grob games vs decent opponents. I've seen the one he played vs Korch but besides that I don't see any other okay ones.

So DF do you play the grob in your rated OTB games? When ever you have white, you play 1.g4 right?

and if you don't, why not? It's a wicked opening right 🙂

Originally posted by masscat
I doubt playing a surprise opening will offset a rating difference of over 400 points esp. when the guy is rated over 2400. Players at that level are far too good to be beaten just because you have an opening advantage. You still have to outplay them in the middle & end game…easier said than done. I’m thinking of one game where an IM blundered a N at move 14 t then he played an improvement on the book: I lost. :'( I could go on, but you get the idea.

That's an extreme example.
At 2400+ levels it doesn't matter what you play if your rating is around 2000.
If you played this person 100 times you would expect to win maybe 10% of games, draw 30% & lose 60%
🙄

I've beaten players who were rated at least 100 points above me using an opening I am very familiar with.
It's doubtful I'd have won or even drawn this game playing the Ruy Lopez or Italian Game for example...
Game 3250780

Originally posted by RahimK
So DF do you play the grob in your rated OTB games? When ever you have white, you play 1.g4 right?

and if you don't, why not? It's a wicked opening right 🙂

According to your logic - if I dont play only 1.e4 but also 1.c4 1.Nf3 and sometimes 1.d4 then 1.e4 is "wicked opening" (to say nothing about another ones) 😀