Most effective opening

This position was reached after move 9 of Game 2476497 my attempt to show that 2. .. Qh4+ was bad for black.

The game follows a line recommended by Korchnoi and followed in the game Robertson-O'Connell, London 1972. On that occasion after white played 10. b3 black eventually won.

I think the position is about equal which for black is all he can expect from the opening.

So I am surprised. There may be improvements for white but the main line was followed and I must conclude that if a novice player wants to avoid the complications of the K G A this is not a bad way to go about it.

I may win this but it will be because of my middle and end game play not thanks to the opening.

Edit: The game might be in progress but it is being played as a demonstration and comments suggesting improvements for white (in particular) are eagerly sought as all K G players need to bust this defense.

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
No! My goal is to get good enough so that my team does not get relegated from division 1 in the Portsmouth League starting October, after we won division 2 last year.

No more noble than that I am afraid as I am too old to burden myself by learning a lot of new stuff! If I can play at 1900 OTB we will achieve this.

Fair enough. You might have to play some of these opening against higher rated players since you must be around 1900-2000 OTb?

As long as you are okay playing KG and Morra vs higher rated players then fine. I just know that a lot of higher rated players know their openings very well so you better have a sound solid opening.

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
[fen]r1b1k1nr/p1p2ppp/2pb4/8/8/6P1/PPPPN2P/RNB1K2R[/fen]

This position was reached after move 9 of Game 2476497 my attempt to show that 2. .. Qh4+ was bad for black.

The game follows a line recommended by Korchnoi and followed in the game Robertson-O'Connell, London 1972. On that occasion after white played 10. b3 black eventually won.

I t ...[text shortened]... ents for white (in particular) are eagerly sought as all K G players need to bust this defense.

Going by a very limited (this line with Qh4+ is rare) but high quality db, White players 2300+ played several different moves and had slightly better results.

The main distictions are not taking the d6 pawn, not taking the knight with Bxg2+ and some other slightly different moves.

I don't know if it will make a lot of difference but according to the db, those slightly different moves do make a slight difference and as you know with openings even a light advantage can turn a draw into a victory.

Originally posted by RahimK
Going by a very limited (this line with Qh4+ is rare) but high quality db, White players 2300+ played several different moves and had slightly better results.

The main distictions are not taking the d6 pawn, not taking the knight with Bxg2+ and some other slightly different moves.

I don't know if it will make a lot of difference but according to the d ...[text shortened]... difference and as you know with openings even a light advantage can turn a draw into a victory.

The line I played comes from one of my (very old) chess books, "The Kings Gambit" by Korchnoi & Zak. The line 2. Qh4+ is the final line of the final chapter on K G D and covers all of 1 page. At that time 3. Qe7 was a new innovation by Ray Keene but only 6 games had ever been played at GM level with the results being W4 D 1 L 1 in blacks favour. The line I followed had been played by 2 of those 6 (a win and a draw for black). I think my 10th move was an improvement for white and I do have a plan to win the middle game.

Never the less this does seem a reasonable line for black to follow if he wants to avoid the more complex lines of the K G A.

Originally posted by RahimK
Fair enough. You might have to play some of these opening against higher rated players since you must be around 1900-2000 OTb?

As long as you are okay playing KG and Morra vs higher rated players then fine. I just know that a lot of higher rated players know their openings very well so you better have a sound solid opening.

Recent results disappointing. 2 losses with Morra Game 2448883 and Game 2285088 against players rated 2050+.

In both cases I must have messed up the middle game as I ended the opening with a "book" assessment saying white stood better. In the second game this was despite being 2 pawns down where the book states "white has a decisive advantage on the dark squares".

This, of course, proves your point. No major blunders, its just that my opponents had a pawn advantage. Perhaps I should change to Sicilian c3?

Mind you there are some good wins against 1800+ players, for example Game 2211535, Game 2381738 and Game 2266665

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
The line I played comes from one of my (very old) chess books, "The Kings Gambit" by Korchnoi & Zak. The line 2. Qh4+ is the final line of the final chapter on K G D and covers all of 1 page. At that time 3. Qe7 was a new innovation by Ray Keene but only 6 games had ever been played at GM level with the results being W4 D 1 L 1 in [b]blacks favour. T ...[text shortened]... reasonable line for black to follow if he wants to avoid the more complex lines of the K G A.[/b]

I got 19 quality games Masters and up after 3...Qe7.

10 games 4.fxe5, 8 games 4. Nc3 which scores better for white.

This is the first diffenent move comes in. Following the games I found this looks best:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 Qh4+ 3.g3 Qe7 4.Nc3

Now I got 1 game d6 is a draw.

6 games with exf4 , 5 loses and 1 draw.

1 game Nf6 is a lose.

So 4.Nc3 seems better then fxe5 according to this db.

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
Recent results disappointing. 2 losses with Morra Game 2448883 and Game 2285088 against players rated 2050+.

In both cases I must have messed up the middle game as I ended the opening with a "book" assessment saying white stood better. In the second game this was despite being 2 pawns down where the book states "white has a decisive advant ...[text shortened]... nst 1800+ players, for example Game 2211535, Game 2381738 and Game 2266665

Both the games vs 1800 I can't agree with the opening play. In OTB fine I would probably mess up too but on here with all the available resources?

Looks like blitz chess to me withouth consulting any resources. A common syptom on here for most players.

Originally posted by RahimK
I got 19 quality games Masters and up after 3...Qe7.

10 games 4.fxe5, 8 games 4. Nc3 which scores better for white.

This is the first diffenent move comes in. Following the games I found this looks best:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 Qh4+ 3.g3 Qe7 4.Nc3

Now I got 1 game d6 is a draw.

6 games with exf4 , 5 loses and 1 draw.

1 game Nf6 is a lose.

So 4.Nc3 seems better then fxe5 according to this db.

An earlier post by CMSMaster said the same thing.

In my book it had only been played once by Milner-Barry v Keene. Maybe Keene won in the middle game because he was the better GM

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
An earlier post by CMSMaster said the same thing.

In my book it had only been played once by Milner-Barry v Keene. Maybe Keene won in the middle game because he was the better GM

O, I must have missed it. Here is the site anyways:

http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/opening-database.html

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
[fen]r1b1k1nr/p1p2ppp/2pb4/8/8/6P1/PPPPN2P/RNB1K2R[/fen]

This position was reached after move 9 of Game 2476497 my attempt to show that 2. .. Qh4+ was bad for black.

The game follows a line recommended by Korchnoi and followed in the game Robertson-O'Connell, London 1972. On that occasion after white played 10. b3 black eventually won.

I t ...[text shortened]... ents for white (in particular) are eagerly sought as all K G players need to bust this defense.

As per Bedlam and I's discussing on page 5, I think we both agree, that 4.d3 is the most solid move and is where the biggest improvement in white's position can be made. White actually scores very well against 4.Qh4+ if played properly.

Originally posted by cmsMaster
As per Bedlam and I's discussing on page 5, I think we both agree, that 4.d3 is the most solid move and is where the biggest improvement in white's position can be made. White actually scores very well against 4.Qh4+ if played properly.

I think you are probably right. 4. d3 was not even considered in Korchnois book, perhaps because it blocks in the white B.

I am not unhappy with the above position where I think white has a small edge but is left to win in the middle game. Blacks pawns are bad so ideas capitalising on this are necessay. I think this involves developing remaining pieces asap and 0-0-0 whilst watching for a dangerous black attack on the K-side.

Edit: Sorry I did not play it proberly! I am a poor K G player, obviously!

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
I think you are probably right. 4. d3 was not even considered in Korchnois book, perhaps because it blocks in the white B.

I am not unhappy with the above position where I think white has a small edge but is left to win in the middle game. Blacks pawns are bad so ideas capitalising on this are necessay. I think this involves developing remaining piece ...[text shortened]... ack on the K-side.

Edit: Sorry I did not play it proberly! I am a poor K G player, obviously!

Hahaha, no you're not. Qh4+ is rarely player - because it is bad. I had to search a bit to find what I considered the best line, and even then Bedlam put me in my place.

BTW: I agree that you're d3 move is an improvement over b3, which seems to weaken the queenside up a little bit.

Originally posted by cmsMaster
Hahaha, no you're not. Qh4+ is rarely player - because it is bad. I had to search a bit to find what I considered the best line, and even then Bedlam put me in my place.

BTW: I agree that you're d3 move is an improvement over b3, which seems to weaken the queenside up a little bit.

These Qe7 lines can be a bit tricky, heres the opening of an otb game, while its not the Qh4+ Qe7 line the position of the queen arent too dissimilar.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qe6



Iv been meaning to take a good look at this position for about half a year now (opps lazy...havent even checked it against a database yet 😛) Iv only seen it once which was in this game otb, I went on to play the position badly and got into a mare of a middle game. Managed to salvage the draw in the endgame but still close call.

I have to admit the amount of time iv spent studying these Qe7(6) lines is almost nil meaning that when encountering them otb that they will have more punch.

Originally posted by Bedlam
These Qe7 lines can be a bit tricky, heres the opening of an otb game, while its not the Qh4+ Qe7 line the position of the queen arent too dissimilar.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qe6

[fen]rnb1kbnr/ppp2ppp/4q3/4p3/5P2/2N5/PPPP2PP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 5[/fen]

Iv been meaning to take a good look at this position for about half a year now (opp ...[text shortened]... 7(6) lines is almost nil meaning that when encountering them otb that they will have more punch.

Normal development here seems fine

i.e. Nf3 then if eXf Be2 followed by 0-0, Re1 and d3/4 (not necesarily in that order) would seem to give white the edge.

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
Normal development here seems fine

i.e. Nf3 then if eXf Be2 followed by 0-0, Re1 and d3/4 (not necesarily in that order) would seem to give white the edge.

True, in the game I played

1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qe6 5. fxe5 Qxe5+ 6. Be2 Bg4 7. d3?! Just too passive.....got into all sorts of trouble went a pawn down but got a bishop of oppsite colour ending 🙂

The kg can be damn scrappy I will give it that. Played my first game of this otb season yesterday. They played Qh4+ in the Bc4 line, I won in the end but my king took quite a bit of pressure towards the end of the game, I noticed while I was playing that I was up two pawns and not being happy about it since black had the initiative. Grrrr 😛