I want to reconcile uncertainty and certainty when starting from a point of chaos, which is characterized by uncertainty galore. We are talking about life, and the precision in life’s operations driven by highly complex, integrated systems; these are clearly not random. Therefore, whatever we say makes these occur must be able to produce these types of systems when we discuss the most complex set of highly precise, information-driven processes.
Information is the removal of uncertainty; the greater the odds against something happening, the greater the information there. A coin flip is 50/50, while a dice roll is one of six. There is more information about the dice, because there were more ways it could have landed. Life has many ways it could unfold, given the numerous chemical reactions taking place.
Chemicals react, and if life came together through these reactions by chance, the right chemicals would happen to be in the same place at the same time, with the right quantities, in a life-friendly environment, without anything that would suppress or hinder the right reactions. Could they come together to produce life?
In life, we observe interdependent, integrated, multifaceted, holistic, and synergistic systems. Therefore, my question is, can the complexity we see in life be generated by an unguided process that came together without a mind’s intent by design? By necessity, all odds against life-friendly reactions need to be overcome, rendering those odds a non-factor; so, no matter how many ways it could go wrong, it would not, even without help.
If all we can point out is that it possibly happened this way or that, there is nothing in those types of suggestions that indicates this would happen because of that. That is more in line with wishful thinking than with factual certainty; there is nothing to imply that life is inevitable under these conditions. If, because of this, an inevitable cause is not forthcoming under those conditions, that is merely wishful thinking; nothing about that is evidence-driven, only just so stories.
Another thing, when those who suggest it could happen in a warm pond, just put a huge limit on the starting material, as when chemical reactions occur, they do not evolve, they react, and when reactions occur, they do not do so with any plan in mind. If what is required for life is present in the pond and reactions occur, it is likely that, in the end, reactions will not move toward a life-friendly direction when the un-life-friendly direction far outweighs the one required. This is so bad that even if you were to receive a life-friendly reaction to start the full process, nothing there will protect that one product going forward, so how long will that last?
@KellyJay
So how would na experiment needed to be designed to count as proving abiogenesis?
This is a relevant question, since the (still existing but recently differently defined) disticntion between "organic" and "inorganic" chemsitry was severly affected by Wöhler who synthesized urea from purely inorganic starting materials, proving that there is no "vis vitalis" that is needed to form "organic" molecules.
@Ponderable saidDoes that answer the information coding in life? That is the thrust of the op.
@KellyJay
So how would na experiment needed to be designed to count as proving abiogenesis?
This is a relevant question, since the (still existing but recently differently defined) disticntion between "organic" and "inorganic" chemsitry was severly affected by Wöhler who synthesized urea from purely inorganic starting materials, proving that there is no "vis vitalis" that is needed to form "organic" molecules.
@KellyJay
You need to look into self-replicating molecules Kelly that underwent natural selection to form stable systems capable of growth and reproduction (leading to primitive cells and diversity of life). - Basically simple molecules that organized into complex polymers like RNA, most likely in environments like deep-sea hydrothermal vents or shallow geothermal ponds.
If you genuinely want to learn something, check out the link:
@Ghost-of-a-Duke saidThe trouble with your answer is you start off with self replicating molecules as if that was not part of the information required.
@KellyJay
You need to look into self-replicating molecules Kelly that underwent natural selection to form stable systems capable of growth and reproduction (leading to primitive cells and diversity of life). - Basically simple molecules that organized into complex polymers like RNA, most likely in environments like deep-sea hydrothermal vents or shallow geothermal ...[text shortened]... ly want to learn something, check out the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k6K7ytmwHI&t=59s
@Ghost-of-a-Duke saidWatch the link my complaint remains.
@KellyJay
You need to look into self-replicating molecules Kelly that underwent natural selection to form stable systems capable of growth and reproduction (leading to primitive cells and diversity of life). - Basically simple molecules that organized into complex polymers like RNA, most likely in environments like deep-sea hydrothermal vents or shallow geothermal ...[text shortened]... ly want to learn something, check out the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k6K7ytmwHI&t=59s
@Ghost-of-a-Duke saidWhen I bring up information driving the processes as the question from chaos. You don’t get to jump to replication as if that is a given without explaining it, as that is a huge part of information processing.
Watch the link.
@KellyJay saidThe point is still: What experiment (it doesn't need to be doable at this time) would you accept as a proof for abiogenesis. Then we can discuss if "infromation" can originate in chaos or not.
Does that answer the information coding in life? That is the thrust of the op.
How about Eigen's Hypercycle as a starting point?
@KellyJay saidTo say that there is information processing going on inside a molecule is to employ a metaphor. Saying that there is information inside a molecule is equivalent to saying that there are Christmas presents inside a molecule. One could just as well assign musical notes to the chemicals inside of a molecule, but it would be an error to say that there’s a symphony going on inside the molecule.
When I bring up information driving the processes as the question from chaos. You don’t get to jump to replication as if that is a given without explaining it, as that is a huge part of information processing.
There is no information inside a molecule. There are only chemicals inside a molecule.
@moonbus saidI am a chemist and you disillousoned me: My whole life has been the quest to find those christmas presents inside the molecules 🙁
To say that there is information processing going on inside a molecule is to employ a metaphor. Saying that there is information inside a molecule is equivalent to saying that there are Christmas presents inside a molecule. One could just as well assign musical notes to the chemicals inside of a molecule, but it would be an error to say that there’s a symphony going on inside ...[text shortened]... molecule.
There is no information inside a molecule. There are only chemicals inside a molecule.
@Ponderable said😆
I am a chemist and you disillousoned me: My whole life has been the quest to find those christmas presents inside the molecules 🙁
WE explain to OURSELVES what is going on inside molecules AS IF it were information processing, because WE process information. This is the bit KellyJay never gets. He keeps projecting human thought patterns into nature. It’s the same as looking at constellations in the sky and seeing a scorpion or seeing Orion. There is no scorpion in the sky, there is no Orion in the sky, there are only points of light. The constellations are entirely our own intellectual construct. The same thing applies to the chemicals inside molecules.
Of course, it has been extremely fruitful for us to understand what is going on inside molecules. It helps us to build glue and computers and airplanes and such things.
@Ponderable saidThe starting point is the information that drives the sequences of placing material together in ways that harness energy and utilize it in useful ways within life to perform work in a useful and constrained manner, and not disintegrate. The sequences that initiate replication to reproduce existing patterns of whatever is being replicated with the information on hand and use it as a template to divide, guided by the information contained within, can produce a copy of itself. You want to discuss something else, start your thread.
The point is still: What experiment (it doesn't need to be doable at this time) would you accept as a proof for abiogenesis. Then we can discuss if "infromation" can originate in chaos or not.
How about Eigen's Hypercycle as a starting point?
@moonbus saidInformation is the removal of uncertainty; there is no uncertainty in processes that react in a highly constrained manner. This was covered in the beginning.
To say that there is information processing going on inside a molecule is to employ a metaphor. Saying that there is information inside a molecule is equivalent to saying that there are Christmas presents inside a molecule. One could just as well assign musical notes to the chemicals inside of a molecule, but it would be an error to say that there’s a symphony going on inside ...[text shortened]... molecule.
There is no information inside a molecule. There are only chemicals inside a molecule.
@KellyJay saidIf it cannot be falsified, then it cannot be classified as science. I think that's why ponderable keeps asking you to describe a hypothetical experiment.
The starting point is the information that drives the sequences of placing material together in ways that harness energy and utilize it in useful ways within life to perform work in a useful and constrained manner, and not disintegrate. The sequences that initiate replication to reproduce existing patterns of whatever is being replicated with the information on hand and use ...[text shortened]... tained within, can produce a copy of itself. You want to discuss something else, start your thread.