Uncertainity and information

@galveston75 said
@sonhouse

Sounds to me like you have no idea what you believe on the subject.
So why do you think that humans will ever get to know it all? Who ever came up with such a foolish idea?
I think it's pretty clear on so many levels that not only will we not ever know it all when in fact the more we learn is the closer we come to destroying ourselves.

And the rea ...[text shortened]... by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

I NEVER said we will know everything. It is a pretty big universe and we don't even have the smarts to reconcile Quantum mechanics with Relativity.
Even then there will ALWAYS be stuff we find puzzling. Like maybe a few thousand years from now, assuming a straightforward advancement of science maybe we figure out how to go from here to a billion lightyears away in a minute but find even after that development we are stuck in this universe and will be subject to whatever future the universe will unfold.
In short, I think ALL religions are man made.
A GOD would never say like in Leviticus a man is worth 50 shekels but a woman 35 no matter what the background of that verse is.
Or it is alright to kill someone of another religion because there is only ONE god.
Funny how Muslims believe that too about THEIR god, OUR god of Jesus is fake.
Or Hindu's or Jains or any of the rest.
ALL manmade and for the vast majority of religions, LITERALLY MAN made, there used to be female based religions till about 10,000 years ago when men took over that bit.
But the bottom line is humans are by far weak and fearful so HAVE to make up some kind of god to rationalize their plight like the fear of seeing aurora for the first time or seeing an eclipse of the sun, a thousand years ago they would piss in their pants and think god is after us and start a major prayer session and then the sun comes out in ten minutes or so, THANK The LORD, he heard our prayers.
If I was alive and spouted my philosophy back then I would last about ten minutes just like I would right now if I went to Afghanistan and spouted what I think. I would be stoned by an incensed crowd.
But nobody can come after me in the anonymous nature of the net.
I would assume you would say, I will pray for you brother.......

@KellyJay said
Random results will stop being random and become precise and functionally complex because?

In chaos theory there are what's called nonlinear dynamical systems. These systems are prone to exhibiting drastically different behaviors when perturbed ever so slightly (consider the so-called Butterfly Effect). Many physical systems behave like this, with the weather being an obvious example.

It has been proven mathematically that such systems inevitably give rise to what are called "strange attractors." A strange attractor is a complex fractal structure that arises from the chaotic behavior of a nonlinear dynamical system. It is an example of global order arising from local disorder, and if there is a time dimension to the system then computer simulations show how such complex structures arise, disappear, and then arise again in a new form as time goes on. Beyond mathematical proofs, which are irrefutable, we see empirically how ordered structures such as cyclones arise in the Earth's atmosphere. Of course, such structures are unstable, and give way to new structures later on.

So, yes, "randomness" of a sort in which objects are jostling about according to certain laws, such as physical laws, can stop being "random" and exhibit complex structures.

This kicks the can down the road, though, and prompts question about what gives rise to physical laws themselves. We have to be honest about that.

@Soothfast said
In chaos theory there are what's called nonlinear dynamical systems. These systems are prone to exhibiting drastically different behaviors when perturbed ever so slightly (consider the so-called Butterfly Effect). Many physical systems behave like this, with the weather being an obvious example.

It has been proven mathematically that such systems inevitably give rise t ...[text shortened]... rompts question about what gives rise to physical laws themselves. We have to be honest about that.

Is this proven mathematically? We can set up our variables in any way we want to achieve our desired outcome. This is why those who claim to have set up a program to show how evolution works control all of the variables; they give weight to what they want to achieve their goals. Are you sure we are simply fooling ourselves?

@sonhouse said
And of course we are all to believe you have no other agenda then the application of science.
Do you really think we are THAT stupid?

I think if I speak about science,, you will drag religion into it.

@KellyJay said
I think if I speak about science,, you will drag religion into it.

And that would be because you ALWAYS have the endgame of religion in mind, your effort is to disprove science can explain anything vaguely touching on what you call religious artifacts.

@sonhouse said
And that would be because you ALWAYS have the endgame of religion in mind, your effort is to disprove science can explain anything vaguely touching on what you call religious artifacts.

So stop bringing religion into it and stick to the science that is supposed to be your strong suit; when I bring God into it, then say something, but to bring God into it is a cheap excuse to avoid the topic.

@KellyJay said
So stop bringing religion into it and stick to the science that is supposed to be your strong suit; when I bring God into it, then say something, but to bring God into it is a cheap excuse to avoid the topic.

I am not avoiding the subject, it is just that you come with an agenda. My agenda is to find the truth and if it is proves goddidit, so be it. VERY unlikely that will ever happen but if so I will accept it.
It is a quantum universe which seems to even invade our very consciousness so I am not saying there is not god or gods, but I can say with confidence if there is, said god has strictly hands off when it comes to Earth.
If anything, I feel like such a god has determined we are not worth the effort to keep going. Remember, we are not the only humans to live on Earth, Neandertals, Desinovans, and early hominids were here WAY before us and have shown the ability to make wooden beams dated back near a half million years.
Anyway, you have your beliefs and I would not be the one to change that but I can put in my opinion with just as much validity as yours.
My opinion says we WILL find life elsewhere and most likely in our own solar system sometime in the next couple hundred years which of course neither of us will be around then and we might not even HAVE a scientifically advanced civilization if we screw up Earth so bad we get near extinction based on our present greed to drill drill drill and now with Trump even MORE drill drill drill and FUUK renewables because he has a lot of his money in oil.
The same thing BTW happened in the covid years, where Trump downplayed Covid, remember ingest disinfectants kills covid in minutes or stick a STRONG UV light up your butt, also kills covid in minutes, holding back a serious effort for more than a year and now we know it was because he had stock in a competing vaccine company and so downplayed coming vaccines because he wanted HIS company to rise the value of their stock and therefore his cut in his stock prices.
Anyway, that is a digression.
There are new discoveries about life origins most every week, the latest a discovery of natural processes that produce lifeless bags which virus or bacteria or even complex molecules can find shelter and do their little combinations to make more complex forms which could lead to life and I say COULD because they don't have further research on the effects in our world.

@sonhouse said
I am not avoiding the subject, it is just that you come with an agenda. My agenda is to find the truth and if it is proves goddidit, so be it. VERY unlikely that will ever happen but if so I will accept it.
It is a quantum universe which seems to even invade our very consciousness so I am not saying there is not god or gods, but I can say with confidence if there is, said ...[text shortened]... d lead to life and I say COULD because they don't have further research on the effects in our world.

You're the only one with an agenda here; when I bring up a topic, it's the topic that I want to talk about; you want to change every conversation into Trump or God.

@sonhouse said
You will never admit life can arise by just having some minerals, maybe water, special pre life molecules capable of acting like a cage and some kind of energy, like hydrovents shooting hot water or lightning.
Seems like a boring job for a deity to be directing life, If I was such a deity, I would set things up so it would run on its own.
Such a huge universe, it seems to ...[text shortened]... s just as much an opinion as mine saying life can form anywhere in the universe and most likely has,

The essential ingredients are all present, even in asteroids:

https://apnews.com/article/asteroid-bennu-nasa-sample-return-e3318592d16a53bea56c1ff689555f0d

No intelligence required.

@KellyJay said
You're the only one with an agenda here; when I bring up a topic, it's the topic that I want to talk about; you want to change every conversation into Trump or God.

And that would be because we KNOW you have an agenda to prove goddidit.
If a proof comes out saying life can come from mud, you would just go that doesn't prove god didn't do it, it just proves intelligence CAN make life.

@sonhouse said
And that would be because we KNOW you have an agenda to prove goddidit.
If a proof comes out saying life can come from mud, you would just go that doesn't prove god didn't do it, it just proves intelligence CAN make life.

Yes, you know, the world between your ears colors a lot of things to your disliking.

@KellyJay said
Yes, you know, the world between your ears colors a lot of things to your disliking.

You seem to refuse to acknowledge I never said there was not a god.
I SAID the ones we claim we have are ALL 100% man made, no god in sight.
Jesus did not rise from the dead, ascend into heaven.
If things are unexplainable it is most likely because the human race is still in maybe 3rd grade in terms of understanding the entire universe.
We probably will be able to answer a LOT of problems we see as unsolvable till newer technology or newer understanding of physics comes around.
In the meantime, if I show you a recent paper not even proving life can come from mud but better understanding of pre biotics, you would poo poo the paper and post some dude 90 years old whose research time is half a century old.

@sonhouse said
You seem to refuse to acknowledge I never said there was not a god.
I SAID the ones we claim we have are ALL 100% man made, no god in sight.
Jesus did not rise from the dead, ascend into heaven.
If things are unexplainable it is most likely because the human race is still in maybe 3rd grade in terms of understanding the entire universe.
We probably will be able to answ ...[text shortened]... u would poo poo the paper and post some dude 90 years old whose research time is half a century old.

Why do you take everything I say and turn it into a conversation about God or Trump?

@KellyJay said
Why do you take everything I say and turn it into a conversation about God or Trump?

Because you and I both know your only goal in life is to prove there is a god and a Christian god at that.
Where was your god when 6 million Jews were murdered in gas chambers?
Where was your god when two atomic bombs hit Japan?
Where was your god when 30 million Chinese were murdered in the communist pogroms?
Where was your god when Idi Amin was murdering hundreds of thousands of his own people?

That bit about thou shalt not kill got blatantly ignored and your god did nothing.
Which tells me if there is a god it wants to exterminate humans and make way for some beings more in tune to the fact we need to nurture the planet rather than the greed going on right now all over the planet which is ruining our very planet we live on.
Why isn't your god saying anything about THAT?

@sonhouse said
Because you and I both know your only goal in life is to prove there is a god and a Christian god at that.
Where was your god when 6 million Jews were murdered in gas chambers?
Where was your god when two atomic bombs hit Japan?
Where was your god when 30 million Chinese were murdered in the communist pogroms?
Where was your god when Idi Amin was murdering hundreds of th ...[text shortened]... planet which is ruining our very planet we live on.
Why isn't your god saying anything about THAT?

Yeah, you are a mind reader.