Information: The lack of uncertainty, the more possibilities against something, the lower the probability it will happen; therefore, the greater the specific information. A coin flip is 50/50, so the uncertainty is 1/2, and a six-sided die is 1/6.
What is proposed in an undirected evolutionary process is that random chance will, in the end, produce a very specified information-driven process. An impossibility as soon as predictable outcomes are present, we have left the world of random. As long as random outcomes are the driving force, they will remain random, unspecified, and unpredictable.
Only something with a nature that can produce predictability can create anything with specified outcomes; an agent is required for designed outcomes. We need not even concern ourselves with only the biological odds since information-directing processes drive them; only something capable of directing those things could produce life.
It takes an author to write a book.
@KellyJay saidYou will never admit life can arise by just having some minerals, maybe water, special pre life molecules capable of acting like a cage and some kind of energy, like hydrovents shooting hot water or lightning.
Information: The lack of uncertainty, the more possibilities against something, the lower the probability it will happen; therefore, the greater the specific information. A coin flip is 50/50, so the uncertainty is 1/2, and a six-sided die is 1/6.
What is proposed in an undirected evolutionary process is that random chance will, in the end, produce a very specified infor ...[text shortened]... mething capable of directing those things could produce life.
It takes an author to write a book.
Seems like a boring job for a deity to be directing life, If I was such a deity, I would set things up so it would run on its own.
Such a huge universe, it seems to me huge arrogance to think life can only be here on Earth, with literally trillions of stars and each star can have a bevy of planets, some like mercury way too close to the sun or Venus, maybe it used to be benign for life but runaway greenhouses did that planet in or the outer gas giants where the possibility for life in our solar system besides right here could be in the moons which have hidden liquid water oceans and such where life could evolve.
And that is just OUR system. Literally trillions of planets in various stages of their own evolution, stars newly formed and billions of years later running out of fuel and go boom, that just says to me Sol and Earth are not in any kind of special place in time or space, a kind of run of the mill galaxy fairly close to other kinds of galaxy where now it it thought we might be in some kind of void in that the average density of galaxies are rather lower than say a billion light years away but that would mean hundreds of galaxies would be in that same relative void and there would still be literally hundreds of billions of stars and maybe a trillion planets in just our neighborhood of galaxies alone.
That just suggests that life will exist anywhere there is a halfway benign planet for life and life might find a way even if there is no planet at all, which of course is hypothesizing and I suppose as it stands right now it is hypothesizing to think there might be life elsewhere than just Earth but I think within a hundred more years of space travel there will be life found in our solar system alone.
Which if that is shown would prove life can form most anywhere there is a benign ecology for life.
All your arguments are just opinions and of course it is just my opinion and the opinion of plenty of scientists that life can form from mud, water, minerals and energy.
So your argument about a deity needed to make life is just as much an opinion as mine saying life can form anywhere in the universe and most likely has,
@sonhouse saidRandom results will stop being random and become precise and functionally complex because?
You will never admit life can arise by just having some minerals, maybe water, special pre life molecules capable of acting like a cage and some kind of energy, like hydrovents shooting hot water or lightning.
Seems like a boring job for a deity to be directing life, If I was such a deity, I would set things up so it would run on its own.
Such a huge universe, it seems to ...[text shortened]... s just as much an opinion as mine saying life can form anywhere in the universe and most likely has,
@KellyJay
If I get you right you try to talk about the probelm of the first cell? Or if we speak with Eigen the first working hypercycle?
One very large problem here is: We don't know about a minimal set-up, so we can't compute any chance of it establishing (and of course we wouldn't know if the "historic" first was the minimal setup or something much more complicated on paper, that had still higher chances under the specific cisrumstances (which we also don't know).
So can we agree that amino acids can form in abiotic consitrions (that is just chemistry)?
Then can we agree that oligopeptides will also form in abiotic conditions?
Then we can also have what one can call a biological function.
Problem with the hypothesis: in an environment with living cells, those will get amino acids and oligopeptides before they have the chnace to from something, that they could under abiotic conditions. But if I do an experiment in abiotic conditions with a selcted system you will tell me that my choice of system would have no chnace in nature, right?
@Ponderable saidWhat makes you think we don't know what the mineral makeup was 3 or so billion years ago? We know EXACTLY what that stuff was, it is still around and can be picked up and sent to a modern lab.
@KellyJay
If I get you right you try to talk about the probelm of the first cell? Or if we speak with Eigen the first working hypercycle?
One very large problem here is: We don't know about a minimal set-up, so we can't compute any chance of it establishing (and of course we wouldn't know if the "historic" first was the minimal setup or something much more complicate ...[text shortened]... th a selcted system you will tell me that my choice of system would have no chnace in nature, right?
It sounds like you are getting more and more desperate in your zeal to kill the idea life can form without a deity guiding every aspect of it.
It sounds like you imagine this deity to be like a 24/7 AI guiding every atom of every molecule of every life force ever to have been seen on Earth, animal, veg, or mineral life, bacteria, virus, vertebrate or not.
I wonder how much energy that would require if a deity had to stick around for billions of years providing live giving services?
For instance, what decision tree would be needed to decide to kill off all the dinosaurs? If they were destined to die off, why build them in the first place?
If the destiny of dino's was to be chickens of today, why not just make chickens and birds in the first place rather than going through a half billion year long system of the process leading up to dinos, why waste all that time for nothing?
@Kewpie saidFor sure, he wants to use science to prove Goddidit. He said we could not know the mineral makeup 3 billion years ago and probably would deny that our solar system came about without the direct intervention of a deity and we DO know the mineral makeup of Earth since there are bits of Earth from that time frame sticking out in places around the world, the latest one found in Australia.
Sonhouse, you're preaching to the choir. KellyJay is the goddidit, Ponderable the scientist.
I just feel a need to expose his arguments as untrue.
@sonhouse saidI asked when will random out puts turn into specified precision outs? I said nothing about what you think the mineral makeup was in the past. You think chemical reactions over time would do that because you don’t like the idea God did it, do you say deep time did it instead because you like that idea better, maybe you can show us why?
For sure, he wants to use science to prove Goddidit. He said we could not know the mineral makeup 3 billion years ago and probably would deny that our solar system came about without the direct intervention of a deity and we DO know the mineral makeup of Earth since there are bits of Earth from that time frame sticking out in places around the world, the latest one found in Australia.
I just feel a need to expose his arguments as untrue.
@KellyJay saidSorry, that was not your post.
I asked when will random out puts turn into specified precision outs? I said nothing about what you think the mineral makeup was in the past. You think chemical reactions over time would do that because you don’t like the idea God did it, do you say deep time did it instead because you like that idea better, maybe you can show us why?
You will ALWAYS claim GODDIDIT no matter what scientific evidence is shown otherwise because even if life was created in a Miller style setup somehow, minerals, water, energy input, BOING a virus or bacteria shoots out, you would just say, well and good, that just proves an intentional path to life and that is what your deity would be doing so you would just dismiss such work.
@sonhouse saidYou didn’t see me say that I asked about anything other than randomness over time becoming precise.
Sorry, that was not your post.
You will ALWAYS claim GODDIDIT no matter what scientific evidence is shown otherwise because even if life was created in a Miller style setup somehow, minerals, water, energy input, BOING a virus or bacteria shoots out, you would just say, well and good, that just proves an intentional path to life and that is what your deity would be doing so you would just dismiss such work.
@sonhouse
"Seems like a boring job for a deity to be directing life, If I was such a deity, I would set things up so it would run on its own."
Two ideas..... What would be the challenge if you were to build a house or a universe so perfectly that all you did for the rest of your existence was to sit in your easy chair and never ever do anything afterwards forever, and ever, and ever.........?
And even if you don't believe in a God, who got the whole thing going in the first place?
@galveston75 saidAnd given the current laws of physics, where would the energy come from even if the dude relaxing is not even made of cells like us but is a robot, an AI creature not even close to being human but has stuff around giving signs it must be a human living there, nice house, breathable atmosphere if indeed said dude had to breathe and the like, where does the energy come from and where would the air come from that would be turned into a carbon dioxide after our lungs gets through with it? I would think no matter how much air there was in say a nice planet with our atmosphere, a few billion or trillion years later it would be CO2 so what does the dude breathe NEXT?
@sonhouse
"Seems like a boring job for a deity to be directing life, If I was such a deity, I would set things up so it would run on its own."
Two ideas..... What would be the challenge if you were to build a house or a universe so perfectly that all you did for the rest of your existence was to sit in your easy chair and never ever do anything afterwards forever, and ...[text shortened]... .....?
And even if you don't believe in a God, who got the whole thing going in the first place?
@KellyJay saidAnd of course we are all to believe you have no other agenda then the application of science.
You didn’t see me say that I asked about anything other than randomness over time becoming precise.
Do you really think we are THAT stupid?
@sonhouse
Sounds to me like you have no idea what you believe on the subject.
So why do you think that humans will ever get to know it all? Who ever came up with such a foolish idea?
I think it's pretty clear on so many levels that not only will we not ever know it all when in fact the more we learn is the closer we come to destroying ourselves.
And the reason or reasons this is happening are these:
Greed is way up there or lack of love of neighbor.
And a major one which is just fine with him is that most don't think the devil is real. Over all he has made fools of most humans.
And to top it all off is many don't believe in a God, our creator, at all.
Sounds to me some here are just plain lost.
2 Timothy 3:6,7... 6 From among these arise men who slyly work their way into households and captivate weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.