1. Joined
    26 Dec '03
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    9138
    14 Nov '04 23:21
    Id like to start off a thread where people can post their ideas on how to deal with engine use on this site.

    Id suggest having chess mods, who people can turn to when they think someone is cheating against them, this would keep it out of the forums and make the site a better place to play chess. It might work something like having a fair few chess mods, if someone thinks someone else is cheating, they could tell one of the mods. That mod would do the analysis, then send the results to two or three other mods who would agree or disagree with it and the problems could be worked out that way.
  2. Joined
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    14 Nov '04 23:28
    1. How should mods be selected? I assume they would all have to be volunteers.

    2. Will games need to be run through multiple programs to detect cheating/assistance? (Fritz, Chessmaster, etc.)

    3. Should there be a penalty of some type (ratings loss or something) for false accusations? I don't think the volunteer mods will want to waste their time with every game that people are angry about losing.

    4. more to come....but I'd like to see what others say..

  3. Joined
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    14 Nov '04 23:36
    Originally posted by tmetzler
    1. How should mods be selected? I assume they would all have to be volunteers.

    2. Will games need to be run through multiple programs to detect cheating/assistance? (Fritz, Chessmaster, etc.)

    3. Should there be a penalty of some type (ratings loss or something) for false accusations? I don't think the volunteer mods will want to waste their ti ...[text shortened]... people are angry about losing.

    4. more to come....but I'd like to see what others say..

    Im not sure how mods would be selected, id like to hear peoples input on this.


    Id suggest that one of the mods tries to get a match up to an engine or engine trends, then the other mods only have to either confirm or deny it. If someones moves matchs up to Fritz8 on one mods computers they will match on the others too.


    I think people would avoid making false accusations, it is quite easy to prove if someone is using an engine or not. Anyone crying wolf would soon find themselves ignored by the mods no doubt.
  4. Standard memberRavello
    The RudeĀ©
    who knows?
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    14 Nov '04 23:44
    I already said it sometimes ago,but it presents some problematic points.

    A pool of three guys who analize games would be needed:preferably very high rated and volunteers.

    Cheating accusations would be taken in consideration if only a given number of games is suspected to be ''dirty'':e.g. 5 games

    This should be dealt in a private way,like mods do between themselves,so no penalty is required for unproven accusations.
    If someone is not sure if someone is cheating and fears a ''penalty'' if he's not right,there are high odds that he'll never accuse the cheater,and this is counterproductive.
    You can't be sure till the game is analized by a chess program.

    Penalty for the spotted cheaters would be a lowering of rating (like done in the past) or the kick off from the site,at admins discretion.

    Maybe later something more will come to my mnd......

  5. Joined
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    86119
    14 Nov '04 23:472 edits
    I think we'll have to wait for the weekdays to arrive for more contributers, but here is some input.

    1. What if a player is found to have cheated on a game. The screwed over player might ask for the game to be overturned. There would definitely need to a policy stated about that. I think the game must stand as-is, despite the cheating. Otherwise it would surely require more development work for Russ.

    2. What to do to cheaters? Ban them? Warn, then ban?

    3. How many games are required to be found guilty? One game?

    4. Would Russ be required to refund their money upon banning them? Or is he in the clear due to the TOS?

    Edit: Ravello, you beat me to some of them...
  6. Subscribergumbie
    The man himself
    Totally lost
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    14 Nov '04 23:50
    Originally posted by Grayeyesofsorrow
    Id like to start off a thread where people can post their ideas on how to deal with engine use on this site.

    Id suggest having chess mods, who people can turn to when they think someone is cheating against them, this would keep it out of the forums and make the site a better place to play chess. It might work something like having a fair few ...[text shortened]... ee other mods who would agree or disagree with it and the problems could be worked out that way.
    Can you give an estimation on how many people are cheating on the site?

    Is it possible to detect cheaters who don't use an engine for every single move?
  7. Joined
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    14 Nov '04 23:52
    Originally posted by Ravello
    I already said it sometimes ago,but it presents some problematic points.

    A pool of three guys who analize games would be needed:preferably very high rated and volunteers.

    Cheating accusations would be taken in consideration if only a given number of games is suspected to be ''dirty'':e.g. 5 games

    This should be dealt in a private way,like mods d ...[text shortened]... from the site,at admins discretion.

    Maybe later something more will come to my mnd......

    Good points. People would have to agree on a set number of games, Ravellos 5 is a good number, the chances of someone following an engine for 5 good games is somewhere off in the billions to one.

    Im not sure how practical it would be to give back points to people who have lost to engines, but it would be a nice touch.

    I think the site would have more people becoming pawn stars if it had a harder policy against engine use. Right now there are people who join other chess sites because they dont want to face engines.
  8. Joined
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    14 Nov '04 23:581 edit
    Originally posted by gumbie
    Can you give an estimation on how many people are cheating on the site?

    Is it possible to detect cheaters who don't use an engine for every single move?
    Im not sure how many cheat, without mentioning names im sure we have all come across some at one point or another on RHP.

    In a way it is, if 70% of the moves are matching up to say fritz8 and the other 30% are foolish moves then it is clear. It would be just like looking at a game where the first half was played by a GM and the second half was played by some newbie chess player.

    As a control we ran a Bbarrs (A strong human play on this site) games through an engine, he came out about 30% match, it was clear the the moves that didnt match Fritz were of an equally high standard and part of his human plan, the Fritz matching moves were also part of that plan, mainly forced moves, recaptures etc. The top players will have a semi high percentage match to Fritz, forced lines etc, the thing that will make their play different from Fritz is humans play with a style and plan where as Fritz looks for random best move each move.

    I think it would be up to the mods disgression to decide on this, but IMO it wouldnt be hard to tell.
  9. Joined
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    15 Nov '04 00:04
    1. Perhaps accusations made by preliminary players should disregarded. Re: false accusations.

    2. Can accusations (alerts) be made only by the opponent? Most games played are public, and non-opponents have been known to go through game history, etc. Can I "alert" about a player I haven't played? Or should it be reserved for opponents-only.
  10. Joined
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    15 Nov '04 00:06
    Originally posted by tmetzler
    1. Perhaps accusations made by preliminary players should disregarded. Re: false accusations.

    2. Can accusations (alerts) be made only by the opponent? Most games played are public, and non-opponents have been known to go through game history, etc. Can I "alert" about a player I haven't played? Or should it be reserved for opponents-only.
    I think accusations should be made by anyone. If people had to keep quiet when they suspect someone was cheating they would turn to the forums.
  11. Standard memberRavello
    The RudeĀ©
    who knows?
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    15 Nov '04 00:08
    Originally posted by tmetzler
    I think we'll have to wait for the weekdays to arrive for more contributers, but here is some input.

    1. What if a player is found to have cheated on a game. The screwed over player might ask for the game to be overturned. There would definitely need to a policy stated about that. I think the game must stand as-is, despite the cheating. Otherwise it ...[text shortened]... ng them? Or is he in the clear due to the TOS?

    Edit: Ravello, you beat me to some of them...
    1.the reinstating or change of the result of a game is impossible and would lead every people who loses to ask their game to be analized,because they hope to replay the game or to get back the points lost.
    It's not possible.

    2.This should be up to the admins:knowing Russ,I guess he would warn then ban,he's a very good guy.
    If it was up to me I'd ban cheaters instantly.

    4.Since the user who was found guilty of cheating was also found guilty of breaking the Terms of service,no refund is required.

    This is a part of the TOS regarding this:You agree that RHP may, under certain circumstances and without prior notice, immediately terminate your RHP account,and access to the Service. Cause for such termination shall include, but not be limited to, (a) breaches or violations of the TOS or other incorporated agreements or guidelines,etc.etc............
  12. Subscribergumbie
    The man himself
    Totally lost
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    15 Nov '04 00:09
    Originally posted by Grayeyesofsorrow

    As a control we ran a Bbarrs (.
    Erm who are we?

    Grayeyesofsorrow and.......
  13. Subscribergumbie
    The man himself
    Totally lost
    Joined
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    15 Nov '04 00:12
    Originally posted by Ravello
    4.Since the user who was found guilty of cheating was also found guilty of breaking the Terms of service,no refund is required.

    This is a part of the TOS regarding this:[b]You agree that RHP may, under certain circumstances and without prior notice, immediately terminate your RHP account,and access to the Service. Cause for such termination shall include, ...[text shortened]... or violations of the TOS or other incorporated agreements or guidelines,etc.etc............
    [/b]
    I think a refund would probably required to avoid the possibility of having to prove the engine use in a court of law.
  14. Joined
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    9138
    15 Nov '04 00:13
    I ran one through Fritz and posted it on FW for everyone to see, but I looked at a few of his games with some of the memebrs from my club and compaired them to Fritz games. Trying to gain a better understanding of telling them apart, it wasnt anything to do with this, it was just following an intresting chess subject.
  15. Joined
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    15 Nov '04 00:16
    Originally posted by gumbie
    I think a refund would probably required to avoid the possibility of having to prove the engine use in a court of law.
    Some might say that this would lose the site money, but I think it would encourage more people to join in the end. Im only here because I know a few people on the site in real life, if I was picking a site to play chess on as many do, I would have checked the sites policy towards cheaters before joining.
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