Ideas for dealing with engines.

Originally posted by gumbie
I think a refund would probably required to avoid the possibility of having to prove the engine use in a court of law.

Speaking of court of law.

1. Should the "alerted/accused" member have a chance to defend himself. Of course this would be handled privately between them and the mods.

2. Maybe there should be a different set of criteria to result in a ban, between subscribers/non-subscribers. More games? Higher matching percentage?

Originally posted by tmetzler
Speaking of court of law.

1. Should the "alerted/accused" member have a chance to defend himself. Of course this would be handled privately between them and the mods.

2. Maybe there should be a different set of criteria to result in a ban, between subscribers/non-subscribers. More games? Higher matching percentage?

I think everyone should be given the chance to defend themselves.

The matching percentage isnt really something you can set, there will be a grey area in this, and in that grey area I think the mods should say they arent cheating. Id guess it would have to be up to the mods disgression. However when 50% of someones moves matchs up to fritz and the other 50% are 1100 style moves then that is clear.

Have you run a test against any accused player(s)? If you do, please let us know the results WITHOUT identifying who you tested. This is purely informational and should not be used to fuel anger.

the thing is.. Even if someone moves exactly like Fritz, Chessmaster.. or what so ever.. can u prove he/she is cheating? That's a problem no matter how sure u can be.. u can never prove that, unless u have an admisson

Originally posted by Pie1120
Have you run a test against any accused player(s)? If you do, please let us know the results WITHOUT identifying who you tested. This is purely informational and should not be used to fuel anger.

Grayeyes posted about 10-20 games of one player on FW (down now), and the match up was about 95%-100% for EVERY game.

D

Originally posted by bazik
the thing is.. Even if someone moves exactly like Fritz, Chessmaster.. or what so ever.. can u prove he/she is cheating? That's a problem no matter how sure u can be.. u can never prove that, unless u have an admisson

I agree with this, and it is especially important if you start talking about banning registered members. There have been test cases in the past where various terms of service (for other sites) have proven to be unenforceable, so unless refunds are given it would be a non-starter to ban people.

It might also be worth considering how many people might be turned away by the idea of this kind of checking up process. It all sounds a little cloak and dagger to me, do the people know they are under investigation, for example, or is the first they hear of it when someone appears in their email saying "you are cheating" or whatnot?

Just a few things to consider...

Originally posted by Pie1120
Have you run a test against any accused player(s)? If you do, please let us know the results WITHOUT identifying who you tested. This is purely informational and should not be used to fuel anger.

Event "Clan"]
[Date "2004.09.05"]
[Round "?"]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result "1-0"]


1.c4 c5 2.g3 e6 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.Nf3 d5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.0-0 Nc6 7.Nc3 Be7 8.Nxd5 exd5 9.d4 0-0 10.dxc5 Bxc5 11.Bg5 Qb6 12.Rc1 d4 13.Qc2 Bd6 14.Nd2 Be6 15.Ne4 Nb4

16.Qd2 [Fritz 8: 16.Qd2 Be5 17.a3 Na2 18.Rc5 f6 19.Bf4 Bxf4 20.gxf4 Rad8 21.Rd1 Bd5 0.09/11 ]

16...Nxa2 17.Nf6+ [Fritz 8: 17.Nf6+ Kh8 18.Qd3 g6 19.Rcd1 Rac8 20.Qe4 Qb5 21.Qh4 0.75/0 ]

17...Kh8 18.Qd3 [Fritz 8: 18.Qd3 g6 19.Rcd1 Rac8 20.Qe4 Qb5 21.Qh4 0.75/0 ]

18...g6 19.Rcd1 [Fritz 8: 19.Rcd1 Rac8 20.Qe4 Qb5 21.Qh4 0.75/10 ]

19...Be5 20.Qe4 [Fritz 8: 20.Qe4 Qc5 21.Qh4 h5 22.g4 d3 23.gxh5 Qb4 24.Rxd3 1.13/10 ]

20...Bxf6 21.Bxf6+ [Fritz 8: 21.Bxf6+ Kg8 22.Qf4 Bb3 23.Rd3 Bc2 24.Bxd4 Qe6 25.Bd5 Qxd5 26.Qf6 3.50/12 ]

21...Kg8 22.Qf4 [Fritz 8: 22.Qf4 Bb3 23.Rxd4 Rfd8 24.Bxd8 Rxd8 25.Rxd8+ Qxd8 26.Bxb7 Qe7 27.Qb8+ Kg7 28.e3 2.97/10 ]

22...Bf5 23.Bxd4 [Fritz 8: 23.Bxd4 Qe6 24.e4 Bg4 25.Bf6 h6 26.Rd6 g5 27.Bxg5 Qxd6 28.Qxd6 hxg5 29.Qd5 4.38/0 ]

23...Qe6 24.e4 [Fritz 8: 24.e4 Bg4 25.Bf6 h6 26.Rd6 g5 27.Bxg5 Qxd6 28.Qxd6 hxg5 29.Qd5 4.38/0 ]

24...Bg4 25.Bf6 [Fritz 8: 25.Bf6 h6 26.Rd6 g5 27.Bxg5 Qxd6 28.Qxd6 hxg5 29.Qd5 4.38/10 ]

25...h6 26.Rd6 [Fritz 8: 26.Rd6 g5 27.Bxg5 Qxd6 28.Qxd6 hxg5 29.Qd5 4.38/11 ]

26...Kh7 27.Rxe6 [Fritz 8: 27.Rxe6 Bxe6 28.Bd4 Nb4 29.Rc1 Nc6 30.Be3 h5 31.e5 Rfd8 32.Qf6 Rac8 6.25/12 ]

27...Bxe6 28.e5 [Fritz 8: 28.e5 Rac8 29.Bxb7 Rc2 30.Qd4 Nc1 31.Qxa7 Ne2+ 32.Kg2 Rxb2 33.Rd1 6.16/10 ]

28...Rac8 29.Bxb7 [Fritz 8: 29.Bxb7 Rc2 30.Qd4 a5 31.Be4 Rc4 32.Qd6 Rfc8 33.Bb7 Re8 34.Rd1 6.22/12 ]

29...Rc7 30.Be4 [Fritz 8: 30.Be4 Rc4 31.Qh4 Bf5 32.f3 Rb8 33.Be7 Rxe4 34.fxe4 Be6 35.Qf6 Rc8 36.h4 Nc1 7.00/12 ]

30...Rc4 31.Qh4 [Fritz 8: 31.Qh4 Bf5 32.f3 Rb8 33.Be7 Rxe4 34.fxe4 Be6 35.Qf6 Rc8 36.h4 Nc1 7.00/13 ]

31...Bf5 32.Bg5 [Fritz 8: 32.Bg5 h5 33.f3 Rb8 34.Be7 Bxe4 35.fxe4 Rc6 36.Qf4 f6 37.Rb1 Kg8 38.exf6 6.53/11 ]


32...h5 33.f3 [Fritz 8: 33.f3 Re8 34.Bd2 Kg8 35.Qf6 Re6 36.Qd8+ Kg7 37.Bd5 Rd4 38.Be3 7.13/0 ]

33...f6 34.exf6 [Fritz 8: 34.exf6 Rf7 35.Bf4 Bxe4 36.fxe4 Rc6 37.e5 Rc2 9.34/11 ]


34...Kh8 35.Bf4 [Fritz 8: 35.Bd2 Rc7 36.Bxf5 gxf5 37.Qxh5+ Rh7 38.Qxf5 Rhf7 39.Ra1 Rxf6 40.Qh5+ Kg7 41.Rxa2 R8f7 10.69/11 ]

35...Bxe4 36.Qg5 [Fritz 8: 36.Qg5 Rf7 37.fxe4 Rc8 38.Qxg6 Rcf8 39.Bh6 Nc1 19.38/12 ]

36...Kg8 37.fxe4 [Fritz 8: 37.fxe4 Rc7 38.Qxg6+ #9/10 ] 37...Rc7 38.Qxg6+ Kh8 39.Bxc7 Rxf6 40.Rxf6 h4 41.Rf8#












[Event "Clan"]
[Date "2004.08.19"]
[Round "?"]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result "1-0"]



1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.Nc3 0-0 5.d3 d6 6.Bg5 Nbd7 7.Qd2 Re8 8.e4 Rb8 9.Nge2 a6 10.0-0 b5

11.cxb5 [Fritz 8: 1) 11.cxb5 axb5 12.b4 c5 13.Rab1 Ne5 14.f4 cxb4 0.19/0 ;
Fritz 8: 2) 11.Nd4 Bb7 12.cxb5 axb5 13.a3 Ng4 14.Ndxb5 h6 15.Bf4 c6 16.Qe2 Nde5 0.09/0 ]

11...axb5

12.Nd4 [Fritz 8: 1) 12.Nd4 Bb7 13.a3 c6 14.h3 Qb6 15.Nf3 c5 16.Bh6 Bh8 0.19/10 ;
Fritz 8: 2) 12.b4 c5 13.Rab1 Ne5 14.f4 cxb4 0.19/10 ]

12...Ne5

13.f4 [Fritz 8: 1) 13.f4 c5 14.Ndxb5 Ned7 15.a4 Qa5 16.f5 gxf5 17.exf5 Ne5 18.d4 Nc4 19.Qe2 0.78/11 ;
Fritz 8: 2) 13.Bxf6 exf6 14.f4 Bh6 15.Qc2 Bd7 16.h3 c5 17.Nb3 Nc6 18.Nd5 0.69/11 ]

13...c5

14.Ndxb5 [Fritz 8: 1) 14.Ndxb5 Ned7 15.a4 Qa5 16.f5 gxf5 17.exf5 Ne5 18.d4 Nc4 19.Qe2 cxd4 20.Qxc4 dxc3 21.Qxc3 0.78/9 ;
Fritz 8: 2) 14.fxe5 cxd4 15.exf6 exf6 16.Bh6 dxc3 17.bxc3 Be6 18.a4 bxa4 19.Rxa4 Qc7 20.Be3 0.66/11 ]

14...Ned7

15.a4 [Fritz 8: 1) 15.a4 Qa5 16.f5 gxf5 17.exf5 Ne5 18.d4 Nc4 19.Qe2 Qb4 20.dxc5 dxc5 0.78/10 ;
Fritz 8: 2) 15.Qe2 h6 16.Bh4 Rb6 17.h3 Bb7 18.Qe3 Bc6 19.a4 Ra6 0.72/10 ]

15...Ba6

16.Kh1 Qa5

17.Qe2 [Fritz 8: 1) 17.Qe2 h6 18.Bxf6 Bxf6 19.Nd5 Bxb5 20.axb5 Qxb5 0.72/10 ;
Fritz 8: 2) 17.d4 Red8 18.dxc5 Nxc5 19.Qc2 Ncd7 20.Nd5 0.69/10 ]

17...Bxb5

18.axb5 [Fritz 8: 1) 18.axb5 Qc7 19.Ra6 Nb6 20.e5 h6 21.Bh4 Nh7 22.e6 Rf8 23.Nd5 1.09/11 ;
Fritz 8: 2) 18.Nxb5 h6 19.Bh4 Nb6 20.e5 Nfd5 21.Be4 Nxa4 0.84/10 ]

18...Qb4

19.e5 [Fritz 8: 1) 19.e5 Nb6 20.Bc6 Nfd7 21.e6 Nf6 22.Bxe8 Rxe8 23.f5 gxf5 24.Bxf6 Bxf6 25.exf7+ 2.75/11 ;
Fritz 8: 2) 19.Ra7 Nb6 20.e5 dxe5 21.fxe5 Nfd7 22.e6 Ne5 23.Bf4 f6 24.Bxe5 fxe5 25.Qf3 Qxb2 2.00/10 ]

19...dxe5

20.Ra4 [Fritz 8: 1) 20.Ra4 Qb3 21.Bxf6 Nxf6 22.fxe5 Qe6 23.exf6 Qxe2 24.Nxe2 exf6 25.Nc3 f5 26.Nd5 Bxb2 27.b6 Re2 3.22/10 ;
Fritz 8: 2) 20.Bxf6 exf6 21.Ra4 Qd4 22.Rxd4 exd4 23.Qf2 dxc3 24.Bc6 Re7 2.88/10 ]

20...Qb3

21.fxe5 [Fritz 8: 1) 21.Bxf6 Nxf6 22.fxe5 Qe6 23.exf6 Qxe2 24.Nxe2 exf6 25.Nc3 f5 26.Ra7 h6 3.22/0 ;
Fritz 8: 2) 21.fxe5 Qe6 22.Bf4 Nh5 23.Bd5 Nxf4 24.Raxf4 Qxe5 25.Bxf7+ Kh8 26.Bxe8 Rxe8 27.Rf7 Qd4 28.Ne4 2.81/11 ]

21...Nh5

22.Bd5 [Fritz 8: 1) 22.Bd5 Qxd5+ 23.Nxd5 f6 24.Be3 e6 25.exf6 Nhxf6 26.Nc7 Re7 27.Raf4 7.25/0 ;
Fritz 8: 2) 22.g4 Nb6 23.Ra7 Nf6 24.exf6 exf6 25.Be3 Bh6 26.Ne4 3.53/9 ]





[Event "Clan"]
[Date "2004.09.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result "*"]



1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Bd2 Bg4 6.Nge2 c6 7.f3 Bc8

[Fritz 8: 7...Bc8 8.Nc1 Nbd7 9.Nb3 Qh5 10.Bf4 Nd5 0.19/11 ]

8.Nf4 Qb6 [Fritz 8: 8...Qb6 9.Bc1 Nbd7 10.Na4 Qb4+ 11.c3 Qa5 12.b4 Qc7 13.Bd3 Nd5 -0.09/11 ]

9.Be3 e5 [Fritz 8: 9...e5 10.Nfe2 Nbd7 11.Qc1 exd4 12.Bxd4 c5 13.Qe3+ Be7 14.Bxf6 Nxf6 15.0-0-0 Qe6 16.Qf4 0-0 -0.09/0 ]

10.Nfe2 Bb4 11.b3 0-0 [Fritz 8: 11...0-0 12.Qd3 exd4 13.Bxd4 c5 14.Bxf6 Qxf6 15.a3 Bf5 16.Qe3 Qa6 -0.84/11 ]

12.Qd2 Nd5 [Fritz 8: 12...Nd5 13.0-0-0 Qa5 14.Kb2 b6 15.a4 Re8 16.dxe5 Ba6 17.Bd4 Bxe2 18.Bxe2 c5 -2.19/0 ]

13.0-0-0 Be6 [Fritz 8: 13...Be6 14.Qd3 Nxc3 15.Nxc3 Qa5 16.Nb1 Qxa2 17.dxe5 Qa1 18.f4 Ba3+ 19.Kd2 Bb2 20.Ke1 -0.97/11 ]

14.Kb2 Qa5 [Fritz 8: 14...Qa5 15.Qd3 Nxc3 16.Nxc3 Rd8 17.Ne4 exd4 18.Kb1 Na6 19.Bg5 Rd5 -1.31/11 ]

15.dxe5 Nd7 [Fritz 8: 15...Nd7 16.Bd4 Rad8 17.Qg5 Nxc3 18.Bxc3 Nxe5 19.Qc1 Ba3+ 20.Kb1 -2.28/10 ]

16.Bf2 Rad8 [Fritz 8: 16...Rad8 17.Qe1 Nxe5 18.Rxd5 Rxd5 19.Be3 Rfd8 20.Kb1 c5 21.f4 Ng6 -2.91/11 ]






[Event "Clan"]
[Date "2004.09.23"]
[Round "?"]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result "*"]


1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.Nc3 0-0 5.d4 d6 6.Nf3 c5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne5 9.Nd2 a6

10.h3 [Fritz 8: 10.h3 g5 11.Qb3 g4 12.hxg4 Nfxg4 13.Nf3 Bf5 14.Nh4 Bc8 15.Nf3 0.00/11 ]

10...e6 11.f4 [Fritz 8: 11.f4 Ned7 12.dxe6 fxe6 13.Nde4 d5 14.cxd5 exd5 15.Nxd5 Nxe4 16.Bxe4 Nf6 17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18.g4 c4 19.Qd5+ Be6 20.Qxb7 Qh4 0.72/0 ]

11...Ned7 12.dxe6 [Fritz 8: 12.dxe6 fxe6 13.Nde4 d5 14.cxd5 exd5 15.Nxd5 Nxe4 16.Bxe4 Nf6 17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18.g4 c4 19.Qd5+ Be6 20.Qxb7 Qh4 0.72/9 ]

12...fxe6 13.Nde4 [Fritz 8: 13.Nde4 d5 14.cxd5 exd5 15.Nxd5 Nxe4 16.Bxe4 Nf6 17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18.Qd5+ Be6 19.Qxb7 0.72/10 ]

13...Nxe4 14.Nxe4 [Fritz 8: 14.Nxe4 Nb6 15.Nxd6 Qc7 16.Nxc8 Raxc8 17.Qc2 Rcd8 18.Be3 Bd4 19.Bf2 Bxf2+ 20.Rxf2 Rd4 0.91/9 ]

14...Nb6 15.Nxd6 [Fritz 8: 15.Nxd6 Qc7 16.Nxc8 Raxc8 17.Qc2 Rcd8 18.e4 Rd4 19.Be3 Rxc4 20.Qe2 0.91/10 ]

15...Bd4+ 16.e3 [Fritz 8: 16.e3 Bg7 17.Nxb7 Bxb7 18.Bxb7 Ra7 19.Be4 Rd7 20.Qe2 Qf6 21.Rb1 Rfd8 22.Bg2 1.50/12 ]

16...Qxd6 17.exd4 [Fritz 8: 17.exd4 Bd7 18.Be3 Nxc4 19.dxc5 Qxd1 20.Rfxd1 Bc6 21.Bd4 Bxg2 22.Kxg2 Rad8 23.Rac1 1.69/11 ]

17...cxd4 18.b3 [Fritz 8: 18.b3 a5 19.Bb2 Rd8 20.Re1 d3 21.Kh2 h6 22.Qd2 Qb4 23.Bc3 1.84/11 ]

18...g5 19.Qg4 [Fritz 8: 19.Qg4 Nd7 20.Qxg5+ Kh8 21.Bd2 Rf5 22.Qd8+ Rf8 23.Qh4 e5 24.fxe5 Rxf1+ 25.Rxf1 Nxe5 2.03/9 ]

19...Qc5 20.Kh2 Qf5 21.Qf3 Qc2 22.Rf2 [Fritz 8: 22.Rf2 Qg6 23.Ba3 Rf7 24.Qe2 gxf4 25.Rxf4 Rxf4 26.gxf4 Qf6 27.Bd6 Nd7 28.Be4 Qh6 29.Rg1+ 1.94/11 ]

22...Qg6 23.Ba3 [Fritz 8: 23.Ba3 Rf7 24.Qe2 gxf4 25.Rxf4 Rxf4 26.gxf4 Qf6 27.Bd6 Nd7 28.Be4 Qh6 29.Rg1+ 1.94/11 ]

23...Rf7 24.Qe2 [Fritz 8: 24.Qe2 gxf4 25.Rxf4 Rxf4 26.gxf4 Qf6 27.Bd6 Nd7 28.Be4 Qh6 29.Rg1+ Kh8 30.Qd3 1.94/11 ]

24...Bd7 25.Bc5 [Fritz 8: 25.Bc5 Bc6 26.Bxc6 d3 27.Qe3 Nxc4 3.22/11 ]

25...d3 26.Qe3 [Fritz 8: 26.Qe3 Nxc4 27.bxc4 Bc6 28.Bxc6 bxc6 29.Rd2 Qf6 30.Rg1 Rd8 31.Rxd3 Rxd3 32.Qxd3 3.22/11 ]

26...Nc8 27.Bxb7




[Event "Challenge"]
[Site "http://www.chessatwork.com"]
[Date "2004.08.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result "*"]




1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.d4 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bxd2+

6.Qxd2 [Fritz 8: 6.Qxd2 d6 7.Nc3 0-0 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Nbd7 10.Rd1 Qa5 11.0-0 0.06/12 ]

6...e4 7.d5 [Fritz 8: 7.d5 0-0 8.Nc3 Re8 9.d6 Qb6 10.Na4 Qd8 11.Qe3 Qa5+ 0.06/13 ]

7...cxd5 8.cxd5 [Fritz 8: 8.cxd5 0-0 9.Nc3 Re8 10.d6 Qb6 11.e3 Nc6 12.Nge2 0.38/13 ]

8...d6 9.Nc3 [Fritz 8: 9.Nc3 Qe7 10.Rc1 Na6 11.Qf4 e3 12.Qxe3 Qxe3 13.fxe3 0.38/11 ]

9...0-0 10.Nxe4 [Fritz 8: 10.Nxe4 Nxe4 11.Bxe4 Nd7 12.Bg2 Nf6 13.Nf3 Bf5 14.0-0 Qe7 15.Rac1 0.41/6 ]

10...Nxe4 11.Bxe4 [Fritz 8: 11.Bxe4 Nd7 12.Bg2 Nf6 13.Nf3 Bf5 14.0-0 Qe7 15.Rac1 0.41/12 ]

11...Re8 12.Bg2 [Fritz 8: 12.Bg2 Nd7 13.Nf3 Nf6 14.0-0 Qe7 15.Nd4 Qe5 16.Rac1 Nxd5 17.Rfd1 Nf6 0.47/12 ]

12...Qf6 13.e4 [Fritz 8: 13.e4 Nd7 14.Ne2 b6 15.0-0 Ba6 16.Rac1 Nc5 17.f3 Nd3 18.Rc2 0.41/12 ]

13...Nd7 14.Ne2 [Fritz 8: 14.Ne2 b6 15.0-0 Ba6 16.Rac1 Nc5 17.f3 Nd3 18.Rc2 Rac8 19.Rxc8 Rxc8 0.41/12 ]

14...Nc5 15.Nc3 [Fritz 8: 15.Nc3 Bd7 16.f3 Rac8 17.0-0 a5 18.Rac1 a4 0.31/8 ]

15...b5 16.0-0 [Fritz 8: 16.0-0 b4 17.Nb5 Ba6 18.Nc7 Bxf1 19.Rxf1 a5 20.Re1 Rac8 21.Nxe8 0.47/0 ]

16...b4 17.Nb5 [Fritz 8: 17.Nb5 Ba6 18.Nc7 Bxf1 19.Rxf1 a5 20.Re1 Rac8 21.Nxe8 0.47/12 ]

17...Qd8 18.Rfe1 [Fritz 8: 18.Rfe1 Qb6 19.Nd4 Bd7 20.a3 bxa3 21.b4 Na6 22.Reb1 0.75/11 ]

18...Qb6 19.Nd4 [Fritz 8: 19.Nd4 Bd7 20.a3 bxa3 21.b4 Na6 22.Reb1 Rab8 23.Nc6 Bxc6 24.dxc6 Qxc6 25.Rxa3 0.75/11 ]

19...f6 20.h3 [Fritz 8: 20.h3 Bd7 21.Nc6 a5 22.Rad1 Rac8 23.a3 Bxc6 0.84/12 ]

20...Bd7 21.b3 Rac8 22.a3 [Fritz 8: 22.a3 a5 23.Kh2 Rc7 24.axb4 axb4 25

Originally posted by bazik
the thing is.. Even if someone moves exactly like Fritz, Chessmaster.. or what so ever.. can u prove he/she is cheating? That's a problem no matter how sure u can be.. u can never prove that, unless u have an admisson

I believe you can. If we were to test 20 GM games and see the match up to Fritz it would still only be 30-40% match up for most of the games. When people are knocking out 100% fritz moves, then all you have to do is use common sense. Before we went to space could we 100% say the world was a globe, had we seen it ? Do we think those Stars in the sky are pin pricks in a black sheet........Its just common sense.

Originally posted by Grayeyesofsorrow
I believe you can. If we were to test 20 GM games and see the match up to Fritz it would still only be 30-40% match up for most of the games. When people are knocking out 100% fritz moves, then all you have to do is use common sense. Before we went to space could we 100% say the world was a globe, had we seen it ? Do we think those Stars in the sky are pin pricks in a black sheet........Its just common sense.

common sense or not, u just cant say "he/she cheated", even if he plays 100% like fritz or something! Of course everyone can say its obviously a cheat, but u cant prove a thing, therefor cant start banning ppl for that!

Originally posted by bazik
common sense or not, u just cant say "he/she cheated", even if he plays 100% like fritz or something! Of course everyone can say its obviously a cheat, but u cant prove a thing, therefor cant start banning ppl for that!

If you wont accept my word on it, im sure I can turn up several chess articles saying the same thing.

Originally posted by bazik
common sense or not, u just cant say "he/she cheated", even if he plays 100% like fritz or something! Of course everyone can say its obviously a cheat, but u cant prove a thing, therefor cant start banning ppl for that!

Do you really believe that any 1100 or 1200 player can come up with a 100% match with Fritz moves?

An analisis showing it is a sufficient proof.

We are not speaking of a 2200 player who plays near GM levels,we are speaking of people who has a really crappy rating and plays 100% GM moves.

I think that something should be done but I would sooner see the Admins implement an automated process for scanning games on completion.

Having seen the ongoing rows over Forum Moderation that only started to ease once some sort of automated process was put in place, my fear is that these Chess Mods would be the cause of much controversy and argument and it would be almost impossible to guarantee thier impartiality.

Originally posted by Exy
I think that something should be done but I would sooner see the Admins implement an automated process for scanning games on completion.

I don't know how you could automate it.

I don't think you can ban people either, cos that would open up a whole can of worms. Maybe a 'suspect' flag could be automatically set to people who's rating suddenly shoots, or who's moves can be shown to match up with Fritz/CM. I know this isn't too scientific as people like dustn may get flagged, due to masses of timeouts, and u would probably be relying on people like grayeyes to run games through fritz, and alert the admin.

I believe 100% that the games posted above are being played using an engine. I also think that something should be done about these cheaters, but, to be honest, it doesn't affect my experience on here. I still get a game of chess in the end of the day.

D

Originally posted by Exy
I think that something should be done but I would sooner see the Admins implement an automated process for scanning games on completion.

Having seen the ongoing rows over Forum Moderation that only started to ease once some sort of automated process was put in place, my fear is that these Chess Mods would be the cause of much controversy and argument and it would be almost impossible to guarantee thier impartiality.

An automated process might require the site to buy at least 2 or 3 engines. Im sure in the community there are a lot of players with a lot of engines. I think that if you could do an automated process it would have to be checked by a human after anyway. If a game is only 15 moves, 5 opening moves then, one player makes a few mistakes and the other players next 10 of those moves have been forced, any automated process couldnt tell the difference between that and someone picking totally fritz8 moves when there are about 10-15 good candadate moves.

Maybe the best way to get impartiality is to have 5 odd admins and each has to check the game to confirm or deny. I think for the most part they should certainly fall on the side of caution, but when people are just turning up constant 95% matchs, they should go.

I think the idea of fighting engine use is old, but still a good one!
As other have mentioned there are several problems in terms of how, when and who. It's really a balance of cleaning up and protecting players from unfair accusations.
A few points regarding the suggestions so far

1.)
I don't think an investigation should commence before, say 5 or 10, different players have reported a possible cheater. I don't know the excact figure, but possibly 50,000 games are being played each month. It would be a very time consuming task to investigate all players that were reported just once. And it would, somewhat, protect players from false accusations.

2)
Thinking of the monthly # of games it would be preferable to have an automated analyzing proces. Just like Exy mentioned.
This would ensure a fairly quick investigation and it would prevent people from questioning the impartiality of the mods

3)
I think cheaters should be warned, then banned.
No rating decrease or canceled games. If a cheater stops cheating, his/her rating drops anyway!

Just my 2 cents...