i believe engine use will never be completely eliminated.
an easy way to reduce engine use is to give the engine users somewhere to go:
give them a division of rhp where they can play.
let them openly admit to using machines,
encourage them to boast of the machine/ program they use!
some engine users will still try to sneak in as humans, but at least there will be fewer.
i think the best is to
separate the admitted engine users,
give them slightly reduced subscription fees to attract them there,
limit their max number of games (computers can go nuts).
humans can challenge computers.
computers can challenge computers,
humans can choose not to accept computer challenges,
hold human only, and computer only tournaments.
have a gentle vigilante group checking the humans ... seeking out computer users, give them the power to 'adjust' membership of some users.
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Originally posted by flexmoreFlexmore....I think this might be one of the BETTER solutions.
i believe engine use will never be completely eliminated.
By adding a computer division, you give the people with "HONEST" reasons for running the software a place to go. As well as providing an easy way to Moderate Computer users. ie: once they are discovered, it does not have to result in a BAN, their class can be changed and they still have full use of RHP. If they disagree with (the class change) they can protest and PROVE that they are not using an engine.
On a side note: Did you ever hear from DSCP? (Great job catching that, 10 min increments) Perhaps his software could be used to feed games automatically into an engine checker. Since he obviously already had the web crawling software written it would only be a matter of how he interfaced that part with the engine he used.
I happen to think that this is a naive non-starter of an idea. It simply misunderstands the motivation that people have to cheat in the first place.
People don't cheat to show off the prowess of their computer's processor, they cheat cos that want to fool people into thinking they are better players than they actually are.
You can create as many computer assisted leagues as you like and not one will stop potential cheaters continuing to use computers in the real player league.
Originally posted by ExyI have to agree with Exy on this one.
People don't cheat to show off the prowess of their computer's processor, they cheat cos that want to fool people into thinking they are better players than they actually are.
BTW, Flexmore, how did you get the times of DSCP's moves? I've tried to get those on another player, but have been unable to.
D
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Originally posted by RagnorakGo to public games and search for the player's username.
you get the times of DSCP's moves?
Last move column should do it for you.
....
So if we are still with the idea not allowing engine users at all.
I think the criteria needed to PROVE engine use, would be the most important thing for the community to agree upon.
Originally posted by tmetzlerCheers for that.
Go to public games and search for the player's username.
Last move column should do it for you.
....
So if we are still with the idea not allowing engine users at all.
I think the criteria needed to PROVE engine use, would be the most important thing for the community to agree upon.
I think its impossible to 'prove' engine use, and so its impossible to ban cheaters, but something needs to be done.
The following are pgns of 1 player's games up to a certain date in September. Some very crappy play, hence he/she was rated between 1000 and 1200 for 5 months. Then after that certain day in September, his rating graph skyrockets steeper than the west face of Everest, upto (and its still rising) 1760ish. Anybody can see that these games aren't being played by a 1700+ player. I got GrayEyes to work his magic, and he reckons that there is a 80-90% match up with Shredder for games played after this magical date.
(opponents rating and accused player's colour marked above pgn.)
1150 - White
1. d4 d5 2. Ng1f3 Nb8c6 3. Bc1f4 g6 4. Nf3g5 Bf8g7 5. Qd1d3 Nc6xd4
6. c3 Nd4e6 7. a4 Ng8f6 8. Ng5xe6 Bc8xe6 9. Nb1a3 O-O 10. Na3b5 c5
11. Nb5c7 Ra8c8 12. Nc7xe6 fxe6 13. e3 b6 14. Bf1e2 c4 15. Qd3b1 a5
16. O-O Rf8f7 17. b3 Nf6e4 18. Qb1c2 Bg7xc3 19. Ra1d1 g5 20. Bf4xg5 Qd8f8
21. bxc4 Rf7xf2 22. Bg5h4 Qf8f5 23. g4 Qf5g6 24. Rf1xf2 Ne4xf2 25. Bh4xf2 Qg6xc2
26. Bf2h4 Qc2xe2 27. Rd1c1 Qe2xe3 28. Kg1f1 Qe3xc1 29. Kf1g2 Rc8xc4
30. Bh4xe7 Rc4xg4 31. Kg2h3 Rg4xa4 32. Kh3g3 Qc1f4 33. Kg3g2 Ra4a2
34. Kg2h3 Qf4f5 0-1
933 - Black
1. e4 e5 2. Qd1h5 d6 3. Bf1c4 g6 4. Qh5f3 Ng8f6 5. d3 Nf6g4 6. Qf3xf7 1-0
1148 - White
1. d4 e6 2. e4 c5 3. e5 f6 4. c3 cxd4 5. Qd1xd4 fxe5 6. Qd4xe5 b6
7. Bc1g5 Bf8e7 8. Qe5xg7 Be7xg5 9. Ng1f3 Bg5f6 10. Qg7g4 Ng8h6 11. Qg4h5 Nh6f7
12. Bf1d3 Bc8a6 13. Bd3xh7 Bf6g5 14. Nf3xg5 Qd8xg5 15. Qh5h3 Qg5c1 0-1
1189 - Black
1. e4 e5 2. d4 f6 3. Ng1f3 Qd8e7 4. Nb1c3 exd4 5. Qd1xd4 c5 6. Qd4c4 d6
7. Qc4b5 Bc8d7 8. Qb5xb7 Bd7c6 9. Qb7b3 g5 10. Bf1b5 a6 11. Bb5xc6 Nb8xc6
12. O-O Ra8b8 13. Qb3a4 Qe7b7 14. Bc1e3 Ng8e7 15. Nc3d5 Rb8a8 16. Nd5xf6 Ke8d8
17. Be3xg5 h6 18. Bg5h4 Qb7xb2 19. Nf6d5 Kd8c8 20. Nd5xe7 Nc6xe7 21. Ra1b1 Qb2g7
22. Bh4xe7 Ra8b8 23. Qa4c6 1-0
What do other chess sites do with regards engine use?
D
Originally posted by RagnorakOn ICC and Gameknot there are guys watching the suspected games,and they ban cheaters.
What do other chess sites do with regards engine use?
D
On Gameknot also guys who had multiple accounts are labeled in their profile by giving their other fake accounts' names.
Here everything is permitted and if you point it out is at your own risk.
Id have to agree with Exy, people cheat so they can have other people go "Wow arent you so good, I wish I was as good as you are" They certainly dont gain anything else on RHP. I think there is also a second lot of cheaters who wouldnt normally cheat, but have since started because others are getting away with it, we all know of people whos rating has been 1100 for ages then shoots up no end.
I think the idea of proof is deceptive, you dont need as Darvley pointed out a "8x10 glossy photo" of them using an engine. The numbers speak for themselves. Unless anyone can put foward an arguement as to how game after game anyone matchs an engine without using that engine.
What do other chess sites do with regards engine use?Some other casual cc servers have an informal policy about it being immoral to use engines in play. The reason is because it is unenforceable. But I must admit, I am interested in this specific case of massive rating fluctuations of previously weak players - as though their chess strength has gone from Bunny to GM overnight! Would this constitute hard evidence in a court of law? Could the bunny claim to have been coached by a local GM for example?
The official organisation for correspondence chess - the ICCF where you can play for an "official" rating does not have a policy against banning computer abuse (at least the last time i looked). So it seems that engine play is treated as part of the "research" tools of the modern official correspondence chess player. They even have prize-money tournaments(!), so there is quite a good incentive to use every available resource available. But it doesn't just stop there - one official looking server which is actually not official and just part of the IECG now, actually has *massive* prize fund tournaments! It really is kind of a strange situation that the casual servers for cc treat this as an issue, but the more official (or official "looking"😉 servers seem to entirely embrace engines as another research tool which simply raises the standard of play.
Casual correspondence servers do in the majority seem to take a view against engine-use but really enforcement is going to be extremely hard. It is not like in an online blitz chess server where you have downloaded a local client on your machine that can spy on any running .dll engines in the background. You can in correspondence chess theoretically "research" using a large number of engines, and when happy with your move, confirm it.
Best wishes
Tryfon
Originally posted by Tryfon GavrielA local GM coaching you cannot radically alter the strength of your play in a matter of weeks; that's just not possible esp. when you are at best an average player. Coaching, better opening theory, endgame techniques, etc. may reasonably quickly improve your score against players of approximately equal ability, but to all of a sudden have players who stagnanted for months or years regularly defeating players who were up until a month ago rated 500-600 points higher is just incredible and I don't buy it. That fact alone doesn't prove engine use, but coupled with analysis using engines that show a 90% agreement between the moves of a particular engine and the moves of the "player" would be quite sufficient in a civil case in a court of law (I'm an attorney who's tried civil cases with less evidence than that).
Some other casual cc servers have an informal policy about it being immoral to use engines in play. The reason is because it is unenforceable. But I must admit, I am interested in this specific case of massive rating fluctuations of previously weak players - as though their chess strength has gone from Bunny to GM overnight! Would this constitute hard ...[text shortened]... ng a large number of engines, and when happy with your move, confirm it.
Best wishes
Tryfon
Whatever other places do, the TOS here specifically bans engine use. People who are so blatantly breaking the rules should be punished, period.
Originally posted by tmetzlerIf something like this was ever setup I do wonder if there would be many people wanting to volunteer, most of the people who have a passion about having fair play dont own engines. And most of the people with engines.......well, you know my thoughts :-)
Ok, this thread was starting to slow down....
Grey...How about a new thread? One asking for potential engine-user mods to volunteer?
They should post what engines they can analyze, any relevant experience, and perhaps their motives for volunteering.
Tim
Anyone out there who would be intrested in it ?
I have another thought on what could happen to people who have been 'proved' to be using an engine....
They could be publicly flagged (thats flagged - not flogged....lol) as having been shown to be an engine user, then people could choose whether ot not they wished to play that person... This stops short of the outright ban and the difficulties involved with that.
Of course it still leaves open the issue of how to detect those who use engines...
I know that i would never wish to knowinglu play an engine user and i suspect most people are of the same opinion - therefore i think an identified engine user would soon run out of games and disappear from our human-player site.
M
Originally posted by noxidjkramSo you would think. Everyone would, except it doesnt happen. The person you were against has shot up from 1100 to 1700 in a month has near 95% CM10 top move. Its been blasted over the forums, theres a huge lists of his *cough cough* games listed next to Fritz. Yet he is still playing people, he still gets clan games. On the bright side a lot of people do know about him now.
therefore i think an identified engine user would soon run out of games and disappear from our human-player site.
M