Ideas for dealing with engines.

Originally posted by Grayeyesofsorrow
Im limited to using one ? hm say Fritz8 then since its the most common engine people are cheating with on this site.

Well...I never really thought of that but better to stick with one engine. Fritz 8 is fine but you better turn it up to killer cause I ate Fritz 8 twice already (gave me a little heartburn). Do you mean switching engines in midstream or do you have software like the triple brain engine Shredder 6 (not the chessbase version) used?

Feivel

I have Deep Fritz, Junior etc. I know certain engines play better in certain parts of the game, intelligent engine use. Im sure you wont beat Fritz8, but it will be an intresting game to watch. :-)

Originally posted by Grayeyesofsorrow
I have Deep Fritz, Junior etc. I know certain engines play better in certain parts of the game, intelligent engine use. Im sure you wont beat Fritz8, but it will be an intresting game to watch. :-)

Well then I would be 2-1-0

Feivel

Id have to think that the people controling Fritz8 in the first games were muppets :-) It will be intresting either way, more so if you do win, which I hope you do. :-)

No it was Meesy not Ms Piggy 🙂

Feivel

Now that I think of it, I think Meesy was ChessMaster but I forget who Fritz was. Just ask if your interested and I am positive someone here has not only the name of the operator but the link to the games.

Feivel

Game 793134

For anybody that is interested. The Silleh guy is operating Fritz 8 and playing white and the suicidal maniac that played 5...Nxd5 would be me. Something tells me that this is going to be a hell of a bloody game 🙂

Feivel

PS - hopefully this will show what we should do to cheaters 🙂

Originally posted by Grayeyesofsorrow
I think its because of this thread that people wont do JW style cheating again. Before this thread there were a lot of less publicized cases, since JW name was mentioned en mass there hasnt been one new case. Its true that the top players can deal with engines, but how many 1100 did JW pulp on his way up ? Its simpley not fair.

Im sorry that t ...[text shortened]... ser to give us their point of view........any takers ? :-) Should see if they like attention.

For the first time, i find myself in agreement with Grayeyes.

It should be disscused openly, but in a polite and civilized manner for that is how "Intellectuals" behave Grayeyes, they dont throw tantrums in forums because they feel no one is listening, they dont call people "bitches" and "ho's", they dont resort to verbal abuse, and they dont seek to belittle those with less understanding than themselves (a little ref to JW, sorry couldnt resist), that Grayeyes is the behavoir of a spoilt little child who's got used to getting his own way for far to long.

You know what i find amusing, the differance in tone between the posts on RHP and the ones on FW, posts made by the same people, on the same subject, i think that says alot about human nature and those that seek to claim the moral high ground, those that claim to be intellectuals.

On the subject of engine use, i have just one question, will someone please explain just exactly how you are planning on catching them ALL, because if you guys are going to start a crusade against engine use on a correspondance chess site (the very thought makes me ROFL) then you have to catch them ALL, from the very top to the very bottom, you cant pick and choose, unless of course this is just a little bit of "selective pruning" and to be honest i wouldnt put that past some of the people on here. And there's the problem, you cant catch them all, anyone who thinks they can is living in a dreamworld, dreaming of a utopia that can never exist, see there's many ways a chess engine can be used, but i'll shorten the list down to 3 for you, lol

Lets call them A,B and C

A. you will be pleased to hear this guy is easy to catch, he's not very good at chess so he lets his engine do all the work, plays engine moves from start to finish, he never questions the engines moves, never shows it alternatives that it hasnt seen, never leads it by the hand. he might not run all the time, unless he gets hooked.

B. Oh dear, youve got big problems with B, he's a clever lad, good at chess, maybe even very good, he wont let the engine do all the work, he's gonna pick and choose, maybe even just use the engine for tactical stuff, he knows when to deviate, he can spot a bad move that the engine wants to play and show it alternatives, he knows how to lead it by the hand. and if he's a good positional player then the engine will simply supplement his tactical game, he knows all about the time factor, and worst of all this guy is gonna play badly in some games, deliberately throwing games, in a subtle way, he's gonna stop his rating from shooting sky high, (there's more, but i have neither the time or inclination to list it all).

C. C is simple, he's had enough of getting beat by people using engines, so he gets himself an engine and he runs back, he might not run all the time, depends on whether he thinks the other guy is using an engine or not, but the key to this guy is he dosnt really care if anyone thinks he's using an engine, in a way he has just succumbed to the inevitable - corry chess is rife with engine use.

So how you gonna catch all those B's, and prove it beyond all doubt ?, chess mods, dont make me laff, the subjective view of 3 people, were not talking about games where 90, 95% of moves match fritz, were talking about games where only a small percentage match, take out the opening, all the forced moves, captures and re-captures, all the obvious moves that even a low rated player would play, your left with very little to work on guys. You cant catch them all, there is no utopia.

A few months back someone gave you the answer to this problem, there are 2 posts in this thread that give you the answer, so why are you so blind. Let the engines run free, out in the open, give them there own little field to play in, let them number crunch against each other.

On the subject of attention seeking, well i think a good case could be made for the "Witchhunters" seeking nothing but attention, after all most of the engine boys, well they just want to hide and some do it very very well.

Regards FGWE, im off to find that utopia, lol, you never know it might be out there somewhere, but i have my doubts :-)

[.... Lets call them A,B and C

A. you will be pleased to hear this guy is easy to catch, he's not very good at chess so he lets his engine do all the work, plays engine moves from start to finish, he never questions the engines moves, never shows it alternatives that it hasn ...[text shortened]... hand. he might not run all the time, unless he gets hooked.
....
"

Forevergreenwithenvy - with respect to classes of cheaters, this is by far the most intelligent posting I have seen in this thread. A previous posting was about catching people who form part of group "A" that you highlight:-

A resident attourney on the site wrote on page 4 the following:-

"A local GM coaching you cannot radically alter the strength of your play in a matter of weeks; that's just not possible esp. when you are at best an average player. Coaching, better opening theory, endgame techniques, etc. may reasonably quickly improve your score against players of approximately equal ability, but to all of a sudden have players who stagnanted for months or years regularly defeating players who were up until a month ago rated 500-600 points higher is just incredible and I don't buy it. That fact alone doesn't prove engine use, but coupled with analysis using engines that show a 90% agreement between the moves of a particular engine and the moves of the "player" would be quite sufficient in a civil case in a court of law (I'm an attorney who's tried civil cases with less evidence than that).

Whatever other places do, the TOS here specifically bans engine use. People who are so blatantly breaking the rules should be punished, period.
"

which seems perfectly reasonable to only catch people who were previously bunnies by their track record - but is it really fair with respect to the more global problem?

It means that those players who are for example now in the top 100 who have been a bit more subtle in their cheating methods will go completely uninvestigated. So it would be a case of selective-investigation. It would be like the police only arresting people dressed up in White and Black striped T-shirts with "I'm a robber - please arrest me" written on them in large letters.

This is probably why the issue is stamped as "unenforcable" in correspondence chess, although some organisations try to discourage engine use.

I'm not sure about the "solution" of computer-accounts or a computer-player playground - wouldn't this add higher profile to engine-users?!. What about attacking the problem at source - and putting pressure on the major engine suppliers (could be done in unison with other sites) to take measures to discourage the abuse of engines at the point of purchase, or at least leave "cheat-codes" in the engines, to totally misevaluate certain positions or opening sequences?! Perhaps it is time for the engine-suppliers themselves to recognise the problems they are causing for playing chess on the Internet. They have succeeded in their goal of creating engines that can beat 99.99% of humans on the planet - perhaps it is time to also incorporate other goals, such as identifying engine "signatures". They can at least make efforts to throw in give-away identifiers that a player is using a particular engine?!

If I wrote an engine which could shred to bits any player here, and then wanted to sell it globally, perhaps I would consider the moral implications of its usage and the effect on the culture of Internet chess. Perhaps I would put some identifying opening lines, whereby the engine chose a totally crap move on purpose so it can be clearly shown it was this particular engine - i.e. include invisible "signatures" by acting very strangely in particular positions - which could form part of the evidence for "convicting" an engine user.

Originally posted by forevergreenwithenvy
For the first time, i find myself in agreement with Grayeyes.

It should be disscused openly, but in a polite and civilized manner for that is how "Intellectuals" behave Grayeyes, they dont throw tantrums in forums because ...[text shortened]... the moral high ground, those that claim to be intellectuals.

I have a doubt that this post is only a consequence of you being accused ,in the past,of engine use by Grayeyes,it stinks of rant-silly-vindication.

Uh,genius,it's obvious that posts at ForumWars have a different tone than Rhp ones,here I can't write that you're an a**hole,while on FW I can .

The rest of your post doesn't deserve a comment since states deadly obvious things like ''you cannot detect all cheaters on the site''............

I would compare Tlai1992 and James Woodley to bank robbers who go to the bank and hand the teller a note "I have a gun. Give me all your money" on the back of their personalized deposit slip. I personally have been very reluctant to accuse people of engine use because it is normally quite difficult to prove to my mind, but when someone is doing it so blatantly and obviously are we to say "Well, we can't catch everybody, so everything goes!!"? If that's how it's going to be the TOS should simply state forthrightly that engine use is allowed so people can make an informed decision on whether they want to join the site. Or it could say what the apparent policy is now straightforwardly: "Engine use is not allowed, but if you do use one, no matter how obvious it is you are using one, nothing will happen to you so enjoy"!! I don't think it's "singling" weaker players out; it is just making the commonsense observation that anyone with any experience in chess knows: players DO NOT make the type of amazing improvement in their games that these two players have in a matter of weeks after they've been playing at the same level for a long time. And they show no understanding of the principles you would expect even an average club player to know. In the real world we don't say we're not going to put ANYBODY in jail for being a thief 'cuz we can't catch EVERY thief and I see no reason why we can't punish blatant and obvious cheats just because more subtle ones are harder or impossible to detect.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I would compare Tlai1992 and James Woodley to bank robbers who go to the bank and hand the teller a note "I have a gun. Give me all your money" on the back of their personalized deposit slip. I personally have been very reluctant to accuse people of engine use because it is normally quite difficult to prove to my mind, but when someone is doing ...[text shortened]... sh blatant and obvious cheats just because more subtle ones are harder or impossible to detect.

bank robbers who go to the bank and hand the teller a note "I have a gun. Give me all your money" on the back of their personalized deposit slip

Been doing some reading about America's stupidest criminals I see 🙂

Feivel

Originally posted by Feivel
[b]bank robbers who go to the bank and hand the teller a note "I have a gun. Give me all your money" on the back of their personalized deposit slip

Been doing some reading about America's stupidest criminals I see 🙂

Feivel[/b]

No, been defending 'em!!!

Originally posted by no1marauder
No, been defending 'em!!!

I been reading about your clients 🙂

Feivel

Originally posted by forevergreenwithenvy
A few months back someone gave you the answer to this problem, there are 2 posts in this thread that give you the answer, so why are you so blind. Let the engines run free, out in the open, give them there own little field to play in, let them number crunch against each other.

On the subject of attention seeking, well i think a good case co ...[text shortened]... find that utopia, lol, you never know it might be out there somewhere, but i have my doubts :-)

And the answer has been given several times as to why that idea isnt worth it. People dont cheat because they are intrested in advanced chess they cheat because they want to look good at chess. Theres no point in bringing it up again and again when people who are blantly using engines deny using them. They just arent intrested in letting other people know about it.