22 Nov 04
1 edit
Originally posted by GrayeyesofsorrowI never said cheaters want negative attention. I did say they want attention...PERIOD. As far as reading the thread on cribs' site, no thanks. I already have heard enough from different sources. As far as your proof as what cheaters want, you only have the request of one cheater and the fact that there are threads about him all over RHP means we really shouldn't take anything he says with more than a grain of salt. As far as the engines I am playing you can say that my "engine awarness" might have been hightened lately but the honest answer is I am not just noticing it now. Some of my opponents are VASTLY different styles to how they were previously (different as in a different player not just ordinary improvement). And some of my first time opponents are certainly machines. Now as towards my interest in this forum, it has nothing to do with that idiot's accusation. Imagine calling me a computer because I made an 11th move that is book. I have been here reading this forum since Russ has started it. i just rarely found reason to post. When you started this thread I was intrigued but then I started hearing that you were dragging your fw accusations here. I didn't believe it so I adopted a wait and see attitude. You didn't really bring over any of your fw accusations but as a result of this thread others here have been calling for a more vigilante approach (as you did on cribs' site). That is counterproductive and it is also against the wishes of the site admins. Now to answer your question why do people cheat, as you correctly said it is to get attention. It really has nothing to do with rating (unless of course we are talking about a retarded cheater). Giving cheaters prominence in anyway whatsoever is giving them attention. Look at it this way, it has been argued that the prevalence of violence in the US is partly due to the media's influence by reporting everything. Studies have proven (yes I said proven) that in countries where the media isn't nearly as "free" as it is in the US have much less violence. Well....you can conclude anything you want but I (and apparently quite a few others including the site admin) feel it is better NOT to place the cheaters in the spotlight.
Feivel to think that any cheaters want negitive attention is streaching it a bit. I have proof that they dont, you only have to read FW for a bit to see one cheater on there telling people to stop posting his games with analysis. ...[text shortened]... y the slack attitude in dealing with known cheaters can do that.
Feivel
22 Nov 04
Originally posted by FeivelI agree with you that this thread probably will cause more people to cheat, but that is only because they can get away with it. Is naming cheaters wrong, well that could be a long debate about who should known information and should it be supressed. For example it certainly isnt a good idea to put on the net how to make cheap nukes. So yes this thread does increase the amount of people cheating, however id hope that it also increases the admins awareness of people wanting something done about it all. How would you go about dealing with cheaters, you say you are playing some, even at the level im playing at iv got games against 4 engine users going, I want them to stop using an engine against me. It didnt seem to be happening by keeping silent, at least this way it is getting attention.
I never said cheaters want negative attention. I did say they want attention...PERIOD. As far as reading the thread on cribs' site, no thanks. I already have heard enough from different sources. As far as your proof as what cheaters want, you only have the request of one cheater and the fact that there are threads about him all over RHP means we really shoul ...[text shortened]... ncluding the site admin) feel it is better NOT to place the cheaters in the spotlight.
Feivel
22 Nov 04
Originally posted by GrayeyesofsorrowBut this thread is not stopping those cheaters your playing is it?Ok...this thread hightens the awareness of some regarding cheaters and as you say it also increases the number of cheaters somewhat. Does the hightened awareness justify the increase in cheaters? No..you know that...I know that and everybody reading knows that. The same type of argument was used by the media in the US to justify the reporting of almost all violent crimes. Funny but as i posted earlier that reporting led to an increase of violent crimes. Just don't give the cheaters the attention that they seek. If you find yourself playing a cheater just don't play him again. If you are so inclined, pM your friends and spread the word. Posting it is not going to help matters and it is something the site admin made perfectly clear. If you still want to do something, follow Russ' advice and send site feedback about it. He may be slow to respond at times but he eventually does.
I agree with you that this thread probably will cause more people to cheat, but that is only because they can get away with it. Is naming cheaters wrong, well that could be a long debate about who should known information and should it be supressed. For example it certainly isnt a good idea to put on the net how to make cheap nukes. So yes this ...[text shortened]... . It didnt seem to be happening by keeping silent, at least this way it is getting attention.
Feivel
22 Nov 04
Originally posted by FeivelIf people do read this thread and then cheating they are scum. Infact im glad they start cheating and show their low self esteem, once Russ does do something about cheating on this site it will only mean that people who did have respect of the community will be shown for the frauds they are. We certainly cant prove that people will start cheating after reading this, but yes they might, however it can be said about those that do, that its not going to be a loss when they are proven to cheat and repremanded. You should be delighted since 6 of the people you are playing who might have cheated less so before, are now doing it so blatantly so that it is now possible to see them cheating.
But this thread is not stopping those cheaters your playing is it?Ok...this thread hightens the awareness of some regarding cheaters and as you say it also increases the number of cheaters somewhat. Does the hightened awareness justify the increase in cheaters? No..you know that...I know that and everybody reading knows that. The same type of argument was use ...[text shortened]... end site feedback about it. He may be slow to respond at times but he eventually does.
Feivel
22 Nov 04
Originally posted by Grayeyesofsorrowim glad they start cheating
If people do read this thread and then cheating they are scum. Infact im glad they start cheating and show their low self esteem, once Russ does do something about cheating on this site it will only mean that people who did have respect of the community will be shown for the frauds they are. We certainly cant prove that people will start cheating ...[text shortened]... less so before, are now doing it so blatantly so that it is now possible to see them cheating.
I thought you were interested in stopping cheaters.
once Russ does do something about cheating on this site it will only mean that people who did have respect of the community will be shown for the frauds they are.
Great but until that happens why increase the number of cheaters?
however it can be said about those that do, that its not going to be a loss when they are proven to cheat and repremanded.
It won't be a loss but why should we "help" them start cheating?
You should be delighted since 6 of the people you are playing who might have cheated less so before, are now doing it so blatantly so that it is now possible to see them cheating.
To be honest, they are better games now and I will enjoy them win or lose. Of course I would rather be playing a human but i am enjoying the game. I really hope they get off by using their mouse because they are not playing a game. Look at it this way, what is a shoolyard bully after? C'mon, I am positive that you know the answer. I bet your mom told you when you were a little silleh lad in school. They want attention and a reaction. You were also told to ignore them because if they didn't get a reaction they would soon tire of their foolishness and stop. Same principle here although it is a different form.
Feivel
22 Nov 04
I thought you were interested in stopping cheaters.
I think it is pretty clear that I am, the people who start using engines to the extent where you can see them using it, were probably doing that in a few games anyway. If you are confendnt in your chess ablitiy you dont suddenly switch to Fritz to make your moves.
Great but until that happens why increase the number of cheaters?
That is only a side effect of this thread, which isnt proven :-) I didnt think this thread would stop anyone cheating, but it would give people a place to put there ideas out and maybe a bit of feedback from admins to say yes we are doing something.
Look at it this way we both know of a clan leader whos rating has gone from 1100 to 1700, if people had of seen him do that and no one had said hey thats a bit dodgy, more people would have been tempted to try it for themselves. There was nothing stopping him from leaving his engine running for an hour each move and never losing another game on RHP, at least with this thread they might get the idea that their time is coming to an end and they can correct their wrongs.
22 Nov 04
Originally posted by ExyThere is a post from one person saying 3 of them are in the same tournament as him. Also they are all entering the clan league, it will be harder to avoid them there.
Moreso in the thread over at the tournament forum than here. I would think Feivel's idea of 'ignoring them' would be best put into practice by declining clan challenges from them.
22 Nov 04
Originally posted by GrayeyesofsorrowIt is clear that you want to stop cheaters. Unfortunately this thread has attracted some that are calling for vigilante justice directed at cheaters. If it stayed at the "idea" stage that would have been fine but that is not what happened and that certainly never could happen in such a varied group as RHP is. Yes, it is a side effect of this thread that some people began (or increased) cheating. It has also been shown to me (by my opponents) that it is true that this thread is the catalyst. Actually if nobody ever mentioned what was done by JW, there is the possibility that some people mIGHT have tried the same thing but when his actions were publicized there was the chance that since more people are now aware of his actions, more people would try the same thing. Unfortunate...yes. True....yes. Anyway about him running his engine for an hour per move, he could have done that and I suppose he would have been very successful but then he would have met a few of the top players that have the ability and knowledge to make engines scream for mercy. Eventually he would tire and diappear like he did. Why publicize it, give him his 15 minutes in the spotlight and ASSURE that more people know what he did so they can repeat it?
[b] I thought you were interested in stopping cheaters.
I think it is pretty clear that I am, the people who start using engines to the extent where you can see them using it, were probably doing that in a few games anyway. If you are confendnt in your chess ablitiy you dont suddenly switch to Fritz to make your moves.
Great but unt ...[text shortened]... they might get the idea that their time is coming to an end and they can correct their wrongs.
Feivel
22 Nov 04
I think its because of this thread that people wont do JW style cheating again. Before this thread there were a lot of less publicized cases, since JW name was mentioned en mass there hasnt been one new case. Its true that the top players can deal with engines, but how many 1100 did JW pulp on his way up ? Its simpley not fair.
Im sorry that this thread has caused people you are playing to cheat, but I still think that it should be allowed to be disscused openly.
Why dont we asked an engine user to give us their point of view........any takers ? :-) Should see if they like attention.
22 Nov 04
Originally posted by GrayeyesofsorrowNo...it is because JW cheating is totally obvious and most people (even idiot cheaters) have more brains than that twerp. Speaking of engines, I need a game (unrated of course) against an engine that has enough decency to say it's an engine. Any takers? Your engine can have white and think as long as you want. 3/0 or 3/7 time out please. BTW greyeyes are you really silleh? Life isn't fair so why do you expect RHP to be. Cheaters are a fact of life. We never will get rid of them but we can always lessen their effects. Instead of screaming "it ain't fair" channel that energy into improving your own game. You would have more fun 🙂
I think its because of this thread that people wont do JW style cheating again. Before this thread there were a lot of less publicized cases, since JW name was mentioned en mass there hasnt been one new case. Its true that the top players can deal with engines, but how many 1100 did JW pulp on his way up ? Its simpley not fair.
Im sorry that t ...[text shortened]... ser to give us their point of view........any takers ? :-) Should see if they like attention.
Feivel
22 Nov 04
Originally posted by GrayeyesofsorrowOk grey eyes...what engine do you want to harrass me with...I'll send a 3/7 over.
http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?event=1800612
Thats my game, RHP is a bit of fun, I play it at blitz speed. Its just annoying that nothing is done about them.
I'll play an engine unrated game against you.
Feivel