1. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    13 Aug '08 21:271 edit
    It has made tournaments and clan matches into a seemingly never ending ordeal if one player chooses to delay. For example, this 3/7 tournament started on September 28, 2007 http://www.timeforchess.com/tournament/view.php?tid=2705

    There is only one game remaining: http://www.timeforchess.com/gameanalysis/boardhistory.php?gameid=4731753

    Naturally, one of the players is on "vacation". Just as naturally, he is continuing to move in most of his 50 games. But he insists on dragging out his one remaining game in the tourney. It seems quite likely that it will require a year to finish the first round of a 3/7 tourney. Since there will be at least two more rounds in this tourney, it seems highly probable that because of the vacation system it will require over two years to complete a tournament with 3/7 time controls all due to the machinations of a few sluggards. This is ridiculous.

    I also have a clan game going where a player is on "vacation" but is moving in virtually all of his 240 games. His time has expired but through strategic use of his vacation flag he is avoiding the time out.

    I would prefer the voluntary vacation system that used to be in place, but if there is going to be a mandatory one at least forbid players from making moves in any games or losing the protection of the vacation. If you're on vacation, you're on vacation; it should not be used for the gamesmanship of not moving in some games to avoid losses while moving in virtually all of your other games. And the vacation flag should not protect you at all in tournament games IMO; it is too much of an inconvenience for the vast majority of other players.

    Thoughts?
  2. Joined
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    14 Aug '08 05:10
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    It has made tournaments and clan matches into a seemingly never ending ordeal if one player chooses to delay. For example, this 3/7 tournament started on September 28, 2007 http://www.timeforchess.com/tournament/view.php?tid=2705

    There is only one game remaining: http://www.timeforchess.com/gameanalysis/boardhistory.php?gameid=4731753

    ...[text shortened]... oo much of an inconvenience for the vast majority of other players.

    Thoughts?
    This is one reason that I propose the concept of Sealed Moves. Please search the Forums for "Sealed Moves" for more information. This idea of mine has been highly criticized by people though. But I think the Sealed Move concept would solve this kind of problem quite nicely.

    One drawback of Sealed Moves is that it demands a great deal of programming, so I don't push for the idea to much. If Russ finds it being a good idea, worth the programming, I'm sure he will implement it.
  3. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    14 Aug '08 07:071 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    It has made tournaments and clan matches into a seemingly never ending ordeal if one player chooses to delay. For example, this 3/7 tournament started on September 28, 2007 http://www.timeforchess.com/tournament/view.php?tid=2705

    There is only one game remaining: http://www.timeforchess.com/gameanalysis/boardhistory.php?gameid=4731753

    oo much of an inconvenience for the vast majority of other players.

    Thoughts?
    A player might run out of time [including timebank] in several games while legitimately on vacation. If they can't move under protection of the vacation flag [after they get back], they will either be forced to move very quickly in all those games, or risk giving their opponents a chance to skull them.

    I was in a 1/0 tourney that was held up for weeks by a player on vacation. At least this guy didn't seem to be moving in any of his games while on vacation. Somehow, that didn't make it any less frustrating.
  4. Joined
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    14 Aug '08 12:46
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    A player might run out of time [including timebank] in several games while legitimately on vacation. If they can't move under protection of the vacation flag [after they get back], they will either be forced to move very quickly in all those games, or risk giving their opponents a chance to skull them.

    I was in a 1/0 tourney that was held up for weeks ...[text shortened]... ing in any of his games while on vacation. Somehow, that didn't make it any less frustrating.
    The current system is clearly wide-open to abuse.
    But apparently it was intended to be the way it is - God alone knows why.
  5. Joined
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    14 Aug '08 12:491 edit
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    If they can't move under protection of the vacation flag [after they get back], they will either be forced to move very quickly in all those games, or risk giving their opponents a chance to skull them.
    Maybe they should be given a 12 hour* period after returning when they are immune from being timed out.



    *Or some other period of time.
  6. Joined
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    14 Aug '08 12:51
    Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
    The current system is clearly wide-open to abuse.
    But apparently it was intended to be the way it is - God alone knows why.
    Correction: Russ alone knows!
    Perhaps that's the same thing...
  7. Standard memberRagnorak
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    14 Aug '08 13:522 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    It has made tournaments and clan matches into a seemingly never ending ordeal if one player chooses to delay. For example, this 3/7 tournament started on September 28, 2007 http://www.timeforchess.com/tournament/view.php?tid=2705

    There is only one game remaining: http://www.timeforchess.com/gameanalysis/boardhistory.php?gameid=4731753

    oo much of an inconvenience for the vast majority of other players.

    Thoughts?
    Total over reaction to tell people what they can and can't do on their vacation because a tournament on a fun internet chess site is being held up.

    But, I agree it's imperfect. The best and simplest solution is to have tournaments/games which allow vacation AKA timeout immunity, and those which don't allow it.

    Some previous threads about vacation...

    In chronological order...
    Thread 63417 Vacation system update.
    Thread 69651 - Vacation Status : Move rule proposal (including Fabianfnas' "flawless" solution).
    Thread 71612 - Rename the vacation system (including comments from Russ)
    Thread 74807 - Remove that idiotic vacation sign
    Thread 95506 - no TOs while on vacation

    D
  8. Standard memberPhlabibit
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    14 Aug '08 14:42
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    It has made tournaments and clan matches into a seemingly never ending ordeal if one player chooses to delay. For example, this 3/7 tournament started on September 28, 2007 http://www.timeforchess.com/tournament/view.php?tid=2705

    There is only one game remaining: http://www.timeforchess.com/gameanalysis/boardhistory.php?gameid=4731753

    ...[text shortened]... oo much of an inconvenience for the vast majority of other players.

    Thoughts?
    I love the vacation system for the same reasons I love you.

    Everyone hates it!

    P-
  9. SubscriberPonderable
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    14 Aug '08 15:01
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    This is one reason that I propose the concept of Sealed Moves. Please search the Forums for "Sealed Moves" for more information. This idea of mine has been highly criticized by people though. But I think the Sealed Move concept would solve this kind of problem quite nicely.

    One drawback of Sealed Moves is that it demands a great deal of programming, so ...[text shortened]... h. If Russ finds it being a good idea, worth the programming, I'm sure he will implement it.
    As far as I recollect the sealed move proposal was also supported a lot and I still support it!
  10. Standard memberleisurelysloth
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    14 Aug '08 17:39
    Originally posted by Ragnorak
    Total over reaction to tell people what they can and can't do on their vacation because a tournament on a fun internet chess site is being held up.

    But, I agree it's imperfect. The best and simplest solution is to have tournaments/games which allow vacation AKA timeout immunity, and those which don't allow it.

    Some previous threads about vacation... ...[text shortened]... ove that idiotic vacation sign
    Thread 95506 - no TOs while on vacation

    D
    Thread 38806
    Thread 69229 I still haven't gotten either of those two recs you promised me, Dr. S. 😉
  11. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    14 Aug '08 18:261 edit
    Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
    Maybe they should be given a [b]12 hour* period after returning when they are immune from being timed out.



    *Or some other period of time.[/b]
    I'd rather allow the player to decide the length of the window, instead of fixing it at a certain value. Not everyone likes to move daily in all their games.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    14 Aug '08 19:09
    Originally posted by Ragnorak
    Total over reaction to tell people what they can and can't do on their vacation because a tournament on a fun internet chess site is being held up.

    But, I agree it's imperfect. The best and simplest solution is to have tournaments/games which allow vacation AKA timeout immunity, and those which don't allow it.

    Some previous threads about vacation... ...[text shortened]... ove that idiotic vacation sign
    Thread 95506 - no TOs while on vacation

    D
    The naysayers were proven correct; the system slows up tournaments and clan matches/leagues to an unacceptable degree, usually because of a single abuser. Since a "vacation" on this site simply means you are protected from being time-outed, I hardly see it as an "over reaction" to say you can't move in any of your games while you are enjoying immunity from timeout. It is unfair that someone can be immune from timeout and moving while their opponent is still liable to be time-outed.
  13. Subscriberno1marauder
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    14 Aug '08 19:19
    I did make an error; the tournament I referenced is in the second, not first round. The first round of this average sized, 3/7 tourney took 5 1/2 months from September 28 to March 10 (about) and the second round started on March 13 and will take at least that long. If there are two more rounds, my estimate of two years to finish such a tourney will be approximately accurate. This is not what one expects on this site when they join a 3/7 tourney.
  14. Joined
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    14 Aug '08 19:40
    Honestly, this site is run by monkeys.
  15. Standard memberRagnorak
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    14 Aug '08 20:05
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The naysayers were proven correct; the system slows up tournaments and clan matches/leagues to an unacceptable degree, usually because of a single abuser. Since a "vacation" on this site simply means you are protected from being time-outed, I hardly see it as an "over reaction" to say you can't move in any of your games while you are enjoying immunity fr ...[text shortened]... an be immune from timeout and moving while their opponent is still liable to be time-outed.
    Yup, banning players from moving'll hurry along the tournaments alright.

    By what right do you think you have to tell me what I can and can't do on my holidays?

    Instead of ridiculously ill-thought out suggestions borne out of anger, ie: stopping players from moving while to hurry up tournaments, I suggested a proper, universally acceptable alternative, which you decided to completely ignore, which is, of course, your prerogative.

    If I decide I want to make a couple of moves using the pre-agreed controls, then I should be able to make moves. If my opponent needs extra thinking time, and is in danger of slipping into TO zone, then he or she is free to use their "timeout immunity" allocation as he or she wishes.

    Also, in the game you based your hysteria on, jazzameboy last moved 4 hours ago. He also has 2 days and 13 hours of TB remaining, which suggests (considering that TB runs down while on vacation) that he has never entered a period of time in which he could have been timed out in that game.

    If all the naysayers weren't so hysterical in their arguments, maybe we'd have seen some better suggestions for an improved vacation system by now.

    D
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