Rom 1:19-20 ESV[b] For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
God has made himself known (his divine attributes) to all creation so they are "without excuse".[/b]The thing is that even the Bible doesn't say we are deceiving ourselves, it may also mean we are not worthy, because we failed to see the "obvious".
Either way, in the way you are reading that statement no believer would doubt the existence of God after he has believed. Heaven must be a lonely place.
Originally posted by Coletti Case in point - as I said - it upsets them.
you think i was upset? that shows about the extent of what you know coletti. i am not upset but rather astounded at the depths of your stupidity, which you wear like the hunter's required blaze orange.
Originally posted by Palynka The thing is that even the Bible doesn't say we are deceiving ourselves, it may also mean we are not worthy, because we failed to see the "obvious".
Either way, in the way you are reading that statement no believer would doubt the existence of God after he has believed. Heaven must be a lonely place.
"Either way, in the way you are reading that statement no believer would doubt the existence of God after he has believed. "
Originally posted by LemonJello you think i was upset? that shows about the extent of what you know coletti. i am not upset but rather astounded at the depths of your stupidity, which you wear like the hunter's required blaze orange.
It appears you were upset by my post because you usually post things that are more substantive. But your reply was rather pointless - apparently a heated reaction (as if upset) and not your usual level of discourse.
Originally posted by Coletti It appears you were upset by my post because you usually post things that are more substantive. But your reply was rather pointless - apparently a heated reaction (as if upset) and not your usual level of discourse.
lest you forget, i have already debated in a more substantive manner concerning this position of yours on atheism. so have many others, i might add. but you have time and time again failed to see reason on this issue, so i see no more need to be substantive here.
what is ironic is that you are more than willing to define away my atheism; but when similar attempts (which are necessarily satirical because there is no merit to them, in the same way there is no merit to your stance, which of course is the whole point) are made to define away your christianity, you pipe up.
Originally posted by Coletti Case in point - as I said - it upsets them.
Case in point, you are proving your intelligence or lack there of. What rationale do you base your opinion that "there are no atheists"? The only thing that is upsetting is your blanket, ignornant statements with no substance.
Originally posted by Coletti I assume you are asking is an atheist really an atheist if he believes deep down that God exists. But I suppose he may call himself anything he wants no matter what he really believes.
Technically, all people believe in the existence of God, even though many deny Him. So technically speaking, there are no atheists. But for the sake of argument, or co ...[text shortened]... to believe in God - and they don't want to let go of something they work so hard to hold on to.
Atheist may argue they really truly do NOT believe in the existence of God. And I claim that they have deceived themselves and God has made himself known to them. But I wouldn't press the point beyond that since it just gets them all upset. I think it's a little scary for them - it's like they now have permission to believe in God - and they don't want to let go of something they work so hard to hold on to.
It is statements like this that repel people. Condemnation of anything outside of what you "believe". What is scarier? Believing in a God or believing that once you die there is nothing else? You come from such a place of arrogant ignorance stinking of such a condescending nature. Are you capable of caring on an intelligent conversation about this without using a single Bible verse or any other resource?
Originally posted by Joe Fist Case in point, you are proving your intelligence or lack there of. What rationale do you base your opinion that "there are no atheists"? The only thing that is upsetting is your blanket, ignornant statements with no substance.
Originally posted by Coletti I did on page 3. See my post on Rom 1:19-20.
Don't bother to answer my last post because evidently you are incapable of defending your position without referring to an outside source (the Bible, etc).
I bet you are not capable of thinking for yourself without attaching it to some quote form Rom 1:19-20 or Jerry 2:7-55 or whatever.
Originally posted by Coletti Atheist may argue they really truly do NOT believe in the existence of God. And I claim that they have deceived themselves and God has made himself known to them. But I wouldn't press the point beyond that since it just gets them all upset. I think it's a little scary for them - it's like they now have permission to believe in God - and they don't want to let go of something they work so hard to hold on to.
"However vigorously [the atheist] may assert that he is a pure positivist,... he will never be free of the secret uncertainty about whether positivism really has the last word."
Originally posted by Joe Fist Are you capable of caring on an intelligent conversation about this without using a single Bible verse or any other resource?
No I don't care to carry on an intelligent conversation without using a single Bible verse or any other resource. I generally do use sources. And being that I am a Christian, the Bible is my primary source. It would be disingenuous of me to ignore the foundations of my beliefs.
Originally posted by Coletti No I don't care to carry on an intelligent conversation without using a single Bible verse or any other resource. I generally do use sources. And being that I am a Christian, the Bible is my primary source. It would be disingenuous of me to ignore the foundations of my beliefs.
It is not a matter for you of "caring to" or not. I claim, just as you claim the nonexistence of Atheists, that you are unable to. You do not possess the ability to express yourself on this subject without the neccessity to refer to the Bible.
Maybe you think I am an ignoramous or whatever but almost every single opinion on every post I have ever made comes from me and what I think. I question your ability to do that and I doubt you even have that desire. Pretty unfortunate and uninteresting for that matter.
Originally posted by Joe Fist It is not a matter for you of "caring to" or not. I claim, just as you claim the nonexistence of Atheists, that you are unable to. You do not possess the ability to express yourself on this subject without the neccessity to refer to the Bible.
Maybe you think I am an ignoramous or whatever but almost every single opinion on every post I have ever mad ...[text shortened]... at and I doubt you even have that desire. Pretty unfortunate and uninteresting for that matter.
Just because he quotes another source does not mean they do not reflect his thoughts. Is every single thought you ever had original?
Originally posted by Joe Fist It is not a matter for you of "caring to" or not. I claim, just as you claim the nonexistence of Atheists, that you are unable to. You do not possess the ability to express yourself on this subject without the neccessity to refer to the Bible.
Maybe you think I am an ignoramous or whatever but almost every single opinion on every post I have ever mad ...[text shortened]... at and I doubt you even have that desire. Pretty unfortunate and uninteresting for that matter.
Feel free to support your claim with something.
My claim is supported necessarily from the Bible because it is part of my belief system. I'd expect your counter claim to be founded on something, or do we merely have your word on it?
Originally posted by Coletti Feel free to support your claim with something.
My claim is supported necessarily from the Bible because it is part of my belief system. I'd expect your counter claim to be founded on something, or do we merely have your word on it?
Yeah it's my "word" for better or worse. It is founded on my experience of the world and the conclusions I have drawn. It doesn't look down upon other beliefs because it is comfortable with that idea that perhpas it is beyond mankind's comprehension to contemplate what truly is (if there is) a "God".
It doesn't require me giving you "my word" and that's an idiotic notion to express someone's belief system in. I do not require one person in the world to share what I believe in because I am not looking for membership. It's not even a counter claim and I am not even an Atheist per se. You quoted your verse and attempted to make the claim that the atheist knows they are not an atheist. You have any idea how insane your stance is? I know I know, in the Bible, Bob 1:15 it says what you said so that is good enough for you.
A Christian
18 Aug '05 18:36
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