1. Colorado
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    26 Oct '05 03:20
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    I wonder why...

    http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/GLOSSARY/INDULGE.HTM

    "In the late thirteenth century, the church came up with the idea of indulgences. In the spiritual life of sinners, indulgences function exactly the same way money functions in their economic life. Here's the logic: since the expiation of sin involves temporal punishment and th ...[text shortened]... the good works of the clergy had paid off the "good works debt" of the individual believer."
    This is an explanation. It’s amazing how people create things and add onto what the scripture says.
    Thanks.
  2. London
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    26 Oct '05 11:57
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    A fine example of the absurdity of some of the Catholic church's decisions. We've gotten way off the beaten path. Christ wanted us to pray one way. The liturgy was originally very simple - a rememberance of the Last Supper and teachings of Christ's works and words. It's still a simple and beautiful mass, except that I've found, by and large, th ...[text shortened]... , who wanted to continue the same malfeasance - selling indulgences, etc. - that made them rich.
    sasquatch, TCE - before you guys start making conclusions on the Church based on Scrib's extract, don't you think it's a good idea to check first if the claims made in that extract are correct?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence
  3. Connecticut
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    26 Oct '05 12:55
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    Where do you get this? Is this in the Bible?
    19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
    21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (John 20:19-23)

    While the act of "breathing on someone" doesn't happen in today's ordinations, the laying on of hands does...

    The prostrate ordained come up to the Bishop, the laying of hands ritual is done, and etc... the gift of the Holy Spirit is given.

    Well, the one ordination I've seen (deaconate) was like that.
  4. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    26 Oct '05 13:002 edits
    Originally posted by Morren
    the act of "breathing on someone" doesn't happen in today's ordinations...
    A crying shame!

    You should read Nemesio's extremely revelatory post a page or two back on what the New Testament Greek actually says (just before he lays on his hands).

    (Is it possible to lay on one's hands? Sounds a bit too much like yoga).
  5. Fear The Cow
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    26 Oct '05 13:01
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    (Is it possible to lay on one's hands? Sounds a bit too much like yoga).
    does sleeping funny on your arm count?
  6. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    26 Oct '05 13:03
    Originally posted by Chakan
    does sleeping funny on your arm count?
    I should have known a Funny Sleeper would chirp. Get back to the track!
  7. R
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    26 Oct '05 15:46
    Hello all, I have been away for awhile, had an eye injury at work and can finally see again.
    Anyway if I can offer some input here....
    I have just read through the posts on this thread, and something caught my attention here. I was taught many years ago, concerning John 20:22, that when Jesus "breathed" on/in them, He was teaching them "how" to receive the gift of holy spirit. This was symbolic of breathing in and speaking words from God. This they were to do on the day of Pentecost.

    Acts 2:1-4
    1 Now when the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
    3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
    (NKJ)

    The "rushing mighty wind", could be literal, or the sound of them "breathing in", to receive the promise.
    It is evident that Peter and all the disciples were changed after receiving the promise of holy spirit as you can see from these verses.

    John 20:19
    19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you."
    (NKJ)

    Acts 2:14
    14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
    (NKJ)

    I love the change in Peter, who a few days earlier was behind closed doors for fear of the Jews, then after receiving the gift of holy spirit he had great boldness. The evidence was their "speaking in other tongues", which is one of the manefestations of holy spirit. There are eight others of which you probably know....
    When a Christian is filled with "power from on high" and knows it, the result is boldness...
    Acts 4:13
    13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.
    (NKJ)

    Acts 4:29
    29 "Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word,
    (NKJ)

    Acts 4:31
    31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.
    (NKJ)

    Sorry if I went overboard here....
  8. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    26 Oct '05 15:494 edits
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    sasquatch, TCE - before you guys start making conclusions on the Church based on Scrib's extract, don't you think it's a good idea to check first if the claims made in that extract are correct?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence
    LOL. Do you deny that the Church created a commodities market for forgiveness and salvation, selling indulgences just as a new corporation holds an IPO to raise capital?

    It even says so in your own source. "For example, a plenary indulgence was proclaimed by Pope Urban II in 1095, and by several of his successors, to anyone who went on the Crusades to re-claim the Holy Land from the Saracens, or who died along the way."


    What do you think a good portion of Luther's theses pertained to?

    65. Therefore the treasures of the Gospel are nets with which they formerly were wont to fish for men of riches.

    66. The treasures of the indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.
  9. London
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    26 Oct '05 16:12
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    LOL. Do you deny that the Church created a commodities market for forgiveness and salvation, selling indulgences just as a new corporation holds an IPO to raise capital?

    It even says so in your own source. "For example, a plenary indulgence was proclaimed by Pope Urban II in 1095, and by several of his successors, to anyone who went on the Cr ...[text shortened]...

    66. The treasures of the indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.
    Do you deny that the Church created a commodities market for forgiveness and salvation, selling indulgences just as a new corporation holds an IPO to raise capital?

    Easily. Go back and check what an indulgence is - it doesn't affect whether you've been forgiven/saved.

    Rephrase your question and maybe we'll have something to agree on.
  10. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    26 Oct '05 16:291 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    [b]Do you deny that the Church created a commodities market for forgiveness and salvation, selling indulgences just as a new corporation holds an IPO to raise capital?

    Easily. Go back and check what an indulgence is - it doesn't affect whether you've been forgiven/saved.

    Rephrase your question and maybe we'll have something to agree on.[/b]
    Do you deny that the Church created a theologically unsound commodities market for punishment remittance, selling indulgences just as a new corporation holds an IPO to raise capital?

    Do you deny that the indulgences claimed to absolve the bearer: "By the authority of all the saints, and in mercy towards you, I absolve you from all sins and misdeeds and remit all punishments for ten days."
  11. Donationkirksey957
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    26 Oct '05 16:35
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Do you deny that the Church created a theologically unsound commodities market for punishment remittance, selling indulgences just as a new corporation holds an IPO to raise capital?

    Do you deny that the indulgences claimed to absolve the bearer: "By the authority of all the saints, and in mercy towards you, [b]I absolve you
    from all sins and misdeeds and remit all punishments for ten days."[/b]
    Doc, I think there's a lot of revisionist history goin on these days.
  12. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    26 Oct '05 16:38
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Doc, I think there's a lot of revisionist history goin on these days.
    My brotha, I know it well. I devote a portion of each of my days to coming here to battle it.
  13. Donationkirksey957
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    26 Oct '05 16:41
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    My brotha, I know it well. I devote a portion of each of my days to coming here to battle it.
    Here's my prediction. 400 years from now, the relocation of pediophile priests will be blamed on the "natural relocation due to the inevitable displacement of priests caused by the large number of hurricanes in America."
  14. Colorado
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    26 Oct '05 16:50
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    sasquatch, TCE - before you guys start making conclusions on the Church based on Scrib's extract, don't you think it's a good idea to check first if the claims made in that extract are correct?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence
    Ok, I'll check it out. Thanks for the link.
  15. Standard memberWulebgr
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    26 Oct '05 17:17
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Doc, I think there's a lot of revisionist history goin on these days.
    Is that bad?
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