23 Oct 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressEasy one:
Where in the Bible does it talk about a priest having the power to forgive sins?
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (John 20:19-23)
Also see Mt 16:19 and Mt 18:18.
23 Oct 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerThanks. I was wondering about this.
Easy one:
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be ...[text shortened]... orgive them, they are not forgiven." (John 20:19-23)
Also see Mt 16:19 and Mt 18:18.[/b]
23 Oct 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressLH answered, bit I wanted to add that it's not just Roman Catholics--Anglicans (Episopalians in the US), Lutherans, and the entire Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc.) Church also.
Where in the Bible does it talk about a priest having the power to forgive sins?
23 Oct 05
Originally posted by vistesdEssentially - all Churches/denominations that believe in the Sacraments.
LH answered, bit I wanted to add that it's not just Roman Catholics--Anglicans (Episopalians in the US), Lutherans, and the entire Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc.) Church also.
TCE - Also c.f. James 5:15-16
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23 Oct 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressYou dont need to be a priest to forgive someones sins (or even baptise) in the Catholic church. In the passage given above Jesus is speaking to his disciples. Who are Jesus' disciples:
Ok, one more question. Does the simple act of becoming a priest qualify somebody to forgive sins, or is there some sort of spiritual test for this?
With all the scandals going on involving priests, I would question their authority to make command decisions on behalf of God.
Anyone who loves his neighbour more then Jesus love you.
Anyone who picks up his cross and follows Jesus.
Hence, any one who is good (or 'in comunion with God'😉 qualifies to forgive. And any who is good should forgive anyway.
23 Oct 05
Originally posted by Conrau KI appreciate the gist of what you are saying. I agree that it’s important for people to forgive for there own sake as well as the offenders.
You dont need to be a priest to forgive someones sins (or even baptise) in the Catholic church. In the passage given above Jesus is speaking to his disciples. Who are Jesus' disciples:
Anyone who loves his neighbour more then Jesus love you.
Anyone who picks up his cross and follows Jesus.
Hence, any one who is good (or 'in comunion with God'😉 qualifies to forgive. And any who is good should forgive anyway.
Some of your points I have some trouble accepting though.
Anyone who loves his neighbour more then Jesus love you.
This sounds good, but what are you really saying here? Jesus’ love is divine, perfect, we are supposed to love our neighbor, more than this? That’s impossible. Even trying to achieve the kind of love that Jesus has for us is extremely difficult.
Hence, any one who is good (or 'in comunion with God'😉 qualifies to forgive.
Communion with God is another tall order. Just because somebody feels God’s love in them does not mean they can go around judging people in the name of God. Jesus spoke directly for God, unless God tells a person directly that they have the authority to judge, I don’t believe that person is qualified.
I do believe that there are saints in this world who have the authority to forgive sins, but I don’t think it’s as common place as you make it out to be. I would guess somewhere along the lines of one in a million or so.
Peace.
23 Oct 05
1 edit
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressThree words for you my friend - ex opere operato.
Ok, one more question. Does the simple act of becoming a priest qualify somebody to forgive sins, or is there some sort of spiritual test for this?
With all the scandals going on involving priests, I would question their authority to make command decisions on behalf of God.
Look it up.
Cheers,
LH
EDIT: Also c.f. 'Donatism'.
23 Oct 05
Originally posted by Conrau KIn the passage given above Jesus is speaking to his disciples. Who are Jesus' disciples
You dont need to be a priest to forgive someones sins (or even baptise) in the Catholic church. In the passage given above Jesus is speaking to his disciples. Who are Jesus' disciples:
Anyone who loves his neighbour more then Jesus love you.
Anyone who picks up his cross and follows Jesus.
Hence, any one who is good (or 'in comunion with God'😉 qualifies to forgive. And any who is good should forgive anyway.
In this case, the Twelve (okay - eleven) Apostles and the remaining sixty (or was it fifty-eight?) from Luke 10.
24 Oct 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerLucifershammer:
Easy one:
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be ...[text shortened]... orgive them, they are not forgiven." (John 20:19-23)
Also see Mt 16:19 and Mt 18:18.[/b]
You cite an interesting passage in St Matthew 16:19. Every English translation I've ever
seen has been dishonest relative to the Greek. The verse reads, in Greek:
Doso soi tas kleidas tes basileias ton ouranon,
I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens,
kai o ean deses epi tes ges estai dedemenon en tois ouranois,
and what if you might bind on the land will be having been bound in the heavens,
kai o ean lusus epi tes ges estai lelumenon et tois ouranois.
and what if you might loose on the land will be having been loosed in the heavens.
(You will note that St Matthew 18:18 is similarly phrased).
This is not the casual relationship that EVERY translation implies; that is, if the Disciples
forgive them, they will be forgiven. No -- indeed -- it indicates that if the Disciples deem
them forgiven, it is simply because they were already forgiven in heaven, as per the passive
past perfect tense of the Greek clearly indicates.
St John 20:23 is similarly written:
[...He said...'Receive the Holy Spirit.] an tinon aphute tas amartias apheontai autois,
...of whom you might send off the sins they have been sent off to them,
an tinon kratute kekratuntai.
of whom you might hold they have been held.
Again, the sins in question have already been determined forgiven or not is clearly
indicated by the careful grammar of the Greek and is totally concordant with the Matthian
reading.
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24 Oct 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressI mean love one another just as Jesus loves you (sorry i didn't look for the exact passage).
I appreciate the gist of what you are saying. I agree that it’s important for people to forgive for there own sake as well as the offenders.
Some of your points I have some trouble accepting though.
[b]Anyone who loves his neighbour more then Jesus love you.
This sounds good, but what are you really saying here? Jesus’ love is divine, ...[text shortened]... make it out to be. I would guess somewhere along the lines of one in a million or so.
Peace.[/b]
Secondly, what i mean by 'in communion with God' is not experiencing his love but acting out of his love. Judging is clearly not consistent with this, as Jesus instucts.
And also, no one has the power to judge. not even the priest. unless under exceptional circumstances (i.e. the person is not remorseful and admits they will do it again) the priest must forgive.
I think you underestimate the number of people who can forgive. I think its around everyone (about 6 billion). The Catholic pope stressed that we should forgive even our enemies.
24 Oct 05
2 edits
Originally posted by Conrau Kwhat i mean by 'in communion with God' is not experiencing his love but acting out of his love.
I mean love one another just as Jesus loves you (sorry i didn't look for the exact passage).
Secondly, what i mean by 'in communion with God' is not experiencing his love but acting out of his love. Judging is clearly not consistent with this, as Jesus instucts.
And also, no one has the power to judge. not even the priest. unless under exception ...[text shortened]... everyone (about 6 billion). The Catholic pope stressed that we should forgive even our enemies.
How is it possible to not experience God's love but act out of it? How does "acting out of love" as you put it entitle somebody to forgive sins for God? God tells us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves (not as Jesus loves us BTW). Where does it say that by loving somebody we have the right to forgive them on behalf of God? This authority must be given by God directly.
I think you underestimate the number of people who can forgive. I think its around everyone (about 6 billion). The Catholic pope stressed that we should forgive even our enemies.
Forgive for themselves? Sure. Forgive on behalf of God? That's not the reality of it. Just because everybody has the potential to find God, doesn’t mean that everybody does. Are there 6 billion saints in the world?