a reprobate mind

Originally posted by FMF
I refer you to the previous lengthy discussions we had about this. I am not interested in wading through it all again.

Well I wouldn't revisit a topic either if I had no leg to stand on. If you want to pretend that you cannot decide what is credible and what isn't that fine by me.

Originally posted by dj2becker
How exactly is thinking your own works can save you investing some hope in Jesus?

Who else are they going to be "saved" by if not Jesus?

You do realize that Rajk999's view is that people who do as Jesus commanded will be "saved" by Jesus? Right?

Originally posted by dj2becker
If you want to pretend that you cannot decide what is credible and what isn't that fine by me.

I am not pretending anything. Take a look at our previous discussions about it.

Originally posted by FMF
Who else are they going to be "saved" by if not Jesus?

You do realize that Rajk999's view is that people who do as Jesus commanded will be "saved" by Jesus? Right?

So why do you think a false hope in something is better than no hope at all?

Originally posted by dj2becker
So why do you think a false hope in something is better than no hope at all?

Why won't you answer the question?

Would you welcome Rajk999's words turning an atheist - who doesn't believe in Jesus - into a non-atheist who invests some degree of "hope" in Jesus?

Originally posted by FMF
I am not pretending anything. Take a look at our previous discussions about it.

I am fully aware of our previous discussions, and as I said before if I were you I would also not like to revisit a topic if I had no leg to stand on, so I fully get you.

Originally posted by FMF
Why won't you answer the question?

Would you welcome Rajk999's words turning an atheist - who doesn't believe in Jesus - into a non-atheist who invests some degree of "hope" in Jesus?

Having no hope is no better than having a false hope, a false hope may actually be worse.

Originally posted by dj2becker
So why do you think a false hope in something is better than no hope at all?

Well, as I have often said, if the promises and hopes that religions give people afford them solace, a sense of purpose and meaning, and enable them to come to terms with inevitability of death, and if they need those hopes [and fears] in order to be able to live a morally sound life and even to engage in good works that have a positive impact on those around them, then I welcome it. Some people need religion. Some people need the hope it gives them. And, for such people, any hope is probably better than no hope at all.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Having no hope is no better than having a false hope, a false hope may actually be worse.

This is a dodge. The question is Would you welcome Rajk999's words turning an atheist - who doesn't believe in Jesus - into a non-atheist who invests some degree of "hope" in Jesus?

Originally posted by FMF
Well, as I have often said, if the promises and hopes that religions give people afford them solace, a sense of purpose and meaning, and enable them to come to terms with inevitability of death, and if they need those hopes [and fears] in order to be able to live a morally sound life and even to engage in good works that have a positive impact on those around th ...[text shortened]... d the hope it gives them. And, for such people, any hope is probably better than no hope at all.

So when you were a Christian did you find that your Christianity gave you promises and hopes of solace, a sense of purpose and meaning, made you to come to terms with inevitability of death, enabled you to live a morally sound life and even to engage in good works that had a positive impact on those around you?

Originally posted by FMF
This is a dodge. The question is [b]Would you welcome Rajk999's words turning an atheist - who doesn't believe in Jesus - into a non-atheist who invests some degree of "hope" in Jesus?[/b]

I told you if that hope is false, no. I don't see someone putting their hope in their own goodness as being equivalent to putting their hope in Jesus. Those two things are polar opposites.

Originally posted by dj2becker
I told you if that hope is false, no.

Would you prefer that they just remained atheists, rather than come to Jesus via a different brand of Christian ideology than yours?

Originally posted by FMF
Would you prefer that they just remained atheists, rather than come to Jesus via a different brand of Christian ideology than yours?

I don't see someone putting their hope in their own goodness as being equivalent to putting their hope in Jesus. Those two things are polar opposites.

Originally posted by dj2becker
I am fully aware of our previous discussions, and as I said before if I were you I would also not like to revisit a topic if I had no leg to stand on, so I fully get you.

I am simply happy that I have had the chance to present and explain my views.

By contrast, you do not seem happy unless you are declaring over and over and over again that you reckon you 'won' the discussion when we had it before ~ something I don't do.

In fact, all that happened is we disagreed before. While you want to go through it all again, I accept that we disagree and feel no need to present my views all over again.

Originally posted by dj2becker
I don't see someone putting their hope in their own goodness as being equivalent to putting their hope in Jesus. Those two things are polar opposites.

Don't you welcome the fact that - as a result of hearing Rajk999's analysis - they accept the notion that it is possible for them be "saved" by Jesus?