Originally posted by sonship
To whom then are we ultimately responsible ?

Does the "whom" in your question have to refer to a supernatural entity in order for you to accept any answer?

Originally posted by sonship
And does that final authority have any enforcing power to enact what ought to be ?

Haven't you declared yourself already "saved" regardless of your past, present or future immoral acts? How can this be framed as anything or anyone enforcing "what ought to be"?

Originally posted by FMF
Does the "whom" in your question have to refer to a supernatural entity in order for you to accept any answer?

No. You can use your imagination.

The buck of morality should stop somewhere.
Where - with what or who ?

You're going to tell us ?
My answer is God is where the responsibility ends.

I think God manifested Himself in perfect ultimate authority ... but He also manifested Himself in perfect submission to authority as well. Ultimate authority and ultimate submission were both manifested by God on earth.

Originally posted by sonship
I think God manifested Himself in perfect ultimate authority ... but He also manifested Himself in perfect submission to authority as well. Ultimate authority and ultimate submission were both manifested by God on earth.

But there is no convincing reason for me to believe any of this. The fact that it appeals to your imagination doesn't lend any weight to it.

Originally posted by FMF
But there is no convincing reason for me to believe any of this. The fact that it appeals to your imagination doesn't lend any weight to it.

So you told us what doesn't convince you. Now tell us what does.
To what or who are we ultimately responsible ?

Originally posted by sonship
The buck of morality should stop somewhere.

Well the consequences of morally unsound actions depend on the nature of the actions. At the 'mildest' level, where we let ourselves down, or disappoint ourselves, even where others do not know, then I suppose "the buck stops" (whatever that means exactly) with our own consciences. At a 'higher' level of immorality, where it is criminal, then "the buck stops" with the judicial system which represents us all and which metes out retribution commensurate with the crimes.

Originally posted by FMF
Well the consequences of morally unsound actions depend on the nature of the actions. At the 'mildest' level, where we let ourselves down, or disappoint ourselves, even where others do not know, then I suppose "the buck stops" (whatever that means exactly) with our own consciences. At a 'higher' level of immorality, where it is criminal, then "the buck stops" w ...[text shortened]... ial system which represents us all and which metes out retribution commensurate with the crimes.

As long as you are not 'caught' you can get away with anything, correct?

Originally posted by dj2becker
As long as you are not 'caught' you can get away with anything, correct?

Well, justice is not perfect. People get away with crimes. That doesn't alter 'where the buck stops' does it?

You said Adolf Eichmann might have been "forgiven" and "saved" if he had been suitably repentant before his death and received "undeserved mercy" from your god figure.

Where's the justice in that for his 6,000,000 victims?

Originally posted by FMF
Well, justice is not perfect. People get away with crimes. That doesn't alter 'where the buck stops' does it?

You said Adolf Eichmann might have been "forgiven" and "saved" if he had been suitably repentant before his death and received "undeserved mercy" from your god figure.

Where's the justice in that for his 6,000,000 victims?

Well either way Adolf Eichmann has to face the justice of God, whatever that may be. On the other hand if God doesn't exist not only Adolf Eichmann, but everyone who hasn't been 'caught' will get away with their crimes. And obviously someone who thinks they have a chance of getting away with it will be more likely to commit a crime.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Well either way Adolf Eichmann has to face the justice of God, whatever that may be. On the other hand if God doesn't exist not only Adolf Eichmann, but everyone who hasn't been 'caught' will get away with their crimes. And obviously someone who thinks they have a chance of getting away with it will be more likely to commit a crime.

So what?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Well either way Adolf Eichmann has to face the justice of God, whatever that may be.

Where's the justice for his 6,000,000 victims if he is the recipient of the "undeserved mercy" you spoke of?

Originally posted by dj2becker
On the other hand if God doesn't exist not only Adolf Eichmann, but everyone who hasn't been 'caught' will get away with their crimes.

Adolf Eichmann was caught. And punished. What are you on about?

Originally posted by dj2becker
And obviously someone who thinks they have a chance of getting away with it will be more likely to commit a crime.

There are Christians on this forum who believe their "sins" have all been forgiven and they are "saved" come what may ~ even if they commit more "sins" ~ because they are "saved" by their "faith". Does this 'regime' make them more likely or less likely to commit "sins"?

Originally posted by dj2becker
...face the justice of God, whatever that may be. ...

Whatever it may be? Is it a secret?

Originally posted by sonship
To whom then are we ultimately responsible ?

And does that final authority have any enforcing power to enact what ought to be ?

I think you miss the point here sonship. My moral framework is not a 'preference.' Mint choc chip ice-cream is a preference, not whether or not I think it is okay to commit murder.

Would you accept 'preference' in regards to your chosen faith, that you could wake up tomorrow and arbitrarily decided to try a spell at Hinduism? Or is your faith fundamental to who you are as a person, something core to your being, your mindset?

Even without God to be responsible to, I am 'not free' to casually decide on my moral outlook. My conscience and moral framework are every inch core to my character and actions as your faith is to you. - No 'final authority' dictates or influences my actions. You may require that to be a decent human being, I don't.