"a result not the means"

Originally posted by wolfgang59
If you believe in the FSM you will get eternal life and an everlasting bowl of spaghetti.

If you don't believe your soul will simmer forever in the Lake of Hot Minestrone.

You have [b]nothing to lose by believing.[/b]

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Originally posted by josephw
Choose not to believe you can have eternal life. Choose to believe nothing. That's what you'll get.

Or you can choose to believe the impossible. What a concept don't you think? Of all the choices there are in this life, why choose a dead end?

Why do you not choose to believe in the FSM and the promise of eternal life?

If the FSM is real you have eternal life.
If not you have lost nothing.

Why choose a dead end?

Originally posted by FMF
You are missing the point, sonship. The point is wielding the idea of avoiding "risk" ~ as does this OP ~ as a supposed rationalization for believing something unbelievable.

The "torture" thing doesn't give me "the ability to believe in Jesus Christ", as you put it. The "agony" thing doesn't work either. Nor does the "eternity" angle. Nor "revenge". Nor "puni ...[text shortened]... ntence like "Why risk flawed logic or rationalization on your eternal address?" fare any better?

You mean unbelievable by you.

Don't ascribe your failings to us.

Originally posted by Suzianne
You mean unbelievable [b]by you.

Don't ascribe your failings to us.[/b]

Yes I mean unbelievable my me. I wasn't ascribing any "failings" to anyone.

Originally posted by FMF
One cannot "choose" to believe something too far-fetched to believe. One could pretend, I suppose, but you reckon that's not what the OP is suggesting. The inevitability ~ for all of us ~ of the "dead end" you mention is unaffected by your assertions of your own immortality.

"One cannot "choose" to believe something too far-fetched to believe."

Ordinarily, but how is it so far-fetched? Are we too stupid to see the truth? I think one "chooses" to blind themselves to the truth, and the truth is Jesus. He said so. It is an unmistakable fact that Jesus said it, and it is an unmistakable fact that He proved it according to the infallible record of scripture.

It's a clear choice!

"One could pretend, I suppose,.."

I have no doubt that there are pretenders who know they're pretenders, and there are those that are pretending because they think they're true believers, and then there are those who are the sons of God.

"The inevitability ~ for all of us ~ of the "dead end" you mention is unaffected by your assertions of your own immortality."

We're all going to experience physical death. Any assertion I make about eternal life isn't going to change that. Eternal life isn't my idea. Not yours. Not anyone's. Why do you assert that the idea of eternal life is too far-fetched? Is the concept too far outside of your mental range? Or is it just too much to hope for?

It's not too far-fetched, nor is it too much to hope for. Having eternal life is easy. All one needs to do is believe God. That's not too far-fetched. God has provided more than enough evidence. It's a choice!

The very idea of eternal life didn't originate in the mind of man.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Why do you not choose to believe in the FSM and the promise of eternal life?

If the FSM is real you have eternal life.
If not you have lost nothing.

Why choose a dead end?

Where's the evidence for the FSM?

It's a fiction. Why do you resort to posting silly, immature and childish things? I'll tell why. It's because you have a vacuous, meaningless and pointless argument.

It's sad too because I really don't think you're that shallow. I just think you have too much time on your hands. I think you really would love to believe you can have eternal life, but are afraid of being disappointed in yourself for fear of failing the test.

There's no test to fail wolfgang. The power to have eternal life is in Jesus, not you or me.

Originally posted by josephw
Where's the evidence for the FSM?

It's a fiction. Why do you resort to posting silly, immature and childish things? I'll tell why. It's because you have a vacuous, meaningless and pointless argument.

It's sad too because I really don't think you're that shallow. I just think you have too much time on your hands. I think you really would love to believe ...[text shortened]...

There's no test to fail wolfgang. The power to have eternal life is in Jesus, not you or me.

The point that Wolfgang here, and many others such as FMF have made repeatedly, is that the exact same words can be used by ANY religion to expound their particular viewpoint.

Instead of FSM insert Allah, Buddha etc etc.

Why do you not believe that Islam is the correct religion (just to pick one). They ALSO make the same claim: Believe the way I do and you will get to Paradise. Refuse to believe, and suffer eternal punishment!

My point is: Jesus said treat others as you would like them to treat you. You want THEM to allow, (if not necessarily accept), your viewpoint. Why not extend others the same courtesy?

Originally posted by CalJust
The point that Wolfgang here, and many others such as FMF have made repeatedly, is that the exact same words can be used by ANY religion to expound their particular viewpoint.

Instead of FSM insert Allah, Buddha etc etc.

Why do you not believe that Islam is the correct religion (just to pick one). They ALSO make the same claim: [i]Believe the way I d ...[text shortened]... to allow, (if not necessarily accept), your viewpoint. Why not extend others the same courtesy?

"The point that Wolfgang here, and many others such as FMF have made repeatedly, is that the exact same words can be used by ANY religion to expound their particular viewpoint."

Not the exact same words, and not with the same truth. I get the point, but it's pointless to assert that the truth is divided by claiming that "ANY religion" has a valid viewpoint merely because of similar wording. Other religions have fundamentally differing views from that of what the Bible teaches. You may not think so, but the differences are strikingly dissimilar.

"Instead of FSM insert Allah, Buddha etc etc."

Jesus, Allah, Buddha and FSM are not the same person.

"Why do you not believe that Islam is the correct religion (just to pick one). They ALSO make the same claim: [i]Believe the way I do and you will get to Paradise. Refuse to believe, and suffer eternal punishment!"

Again, the content of the claims of other religions may have similar sounding beliefs due to similar words, but they differ fundamentally in their teachings concerning how, who and why one can obtain eternal life.

"My point is: Jesus said treat others as you would like them to treat you. You want THEM to allow, (if not necessarily accept), your viewpoint. Why not extend others the same courtesy?"

You have never heard me say anything discourteous to someone because they have other beliefs. Why are you suggesting that? Where were you when I was being vilified in other threads? I do respect other's right to have their own beliefs. But this isn't a debate over rights. This is a debate about truth. I don't have a problem with respecting other's right to their own beliefs.

Originally posted by josephw

Can you hear yourself?

Not the exact same words, and not with the same truth. I get the point, but it's pointless to assert that the truth is divided by claiming that "ANY religion" has a valid viewpoint merely because of similar wording. Other religions have fundamentally differing views from that of what the (Bible, Quran,....) teaches. You may not think so, but the differences are strikingly dissimilar.

Again, the content of the claims of other religions may have similar sounding beliefs due to similar words, but they differ fundamentally in their teachings concerning how, who and why one can obtain eternal life.

I don't have a problem with respecting other's right to their own beliefs.

Can you not see that the same words can be, and ARE, being used by every other Fundamentalist today in exactly the same way?

I am NOT saying that they are similar, far from it - they are radically different.

But this isn't a debate over rights. This is a debate about truth.

But what I AM saying, is that the SAME appeal to the TRUTH, the same fanatical claim that they, and they alone, have heard directly from God, is made by every Fundamentalist, of whatever colour.

Maybe what I am also saying, is that "by their fruits ye shall know them", and not by their profession. Claiming that you have the TRUTH and are the only ones that are RIGHT, places you with some very strange bedfellows.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Yes, dive, I've been away...

But you've been posting in the general forum, here and other forums as well as your private clubs, moving in your games and sending so many PMs that several people have put you on "ignore".

Hardly away is it?

Originally posted by divegeester
But you've been posting in the general forum, here and other forums as well as your private clubs, moving in your games and sending so many PMs that several people have put you on "ignore".

Hardly away is it?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby Thread 160748 (Page 1)
Originally posted by huckleberryhound
"First of all, it's only been a month, not a few months. Second, i'm guessing you couldn't post in the forum because you
were banned, so you pestered people with PMs instead. . .like you did before. Grow up."

Strictly personal choice, huckleberryhound. As previously stated in late July, "a few months rest sabbatical" applies by choice to the General and Spirituality Forums only. Wouldn't be able to post actively in the Sports, Debates, Science, Culture, Only Chess or Tournaments Forums if Russ or his forum moderation staff had found reason to justify a ban. See you in October.

A General Forum apology and this thread motivated by Suzi's thoughtful reply in another thread. Thanks for your friendship.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[quote]Originally posted by Grampy Bobby Thread 160748 (Page 1)
Originally posted by huckleberryhound
"First of all, it's only been a month, not a few months. Second, i'm guessing you couldn't post in the forum because you
were banned, so you pestered people with PMs instead. . .like you did before. Grow up."

Strictly ...[text shortened]... this thread motivated by Suzi's thoughtful reply in another thread. Thanks for your friendship.

Please don't assume that my disagreement with you is reflective of a lack of "friendship"; but to my point, here you are.

Originally posted by josephw
Where's the evidence for the FSM?

It's a fiction. Why do you resort to posting silly, immature and childish things? I'll tell why. It's because you have a vacuous, meaningless and pointless argument.

It's sad too because I really don't think you're that shallow. I just think you have too much time on your hands. I think you really would love to believe ...[text shortened]...

There's no test to fail wolfgang. The power to have eternal life is in Jesus, not you or me.

CalJust has given you a sensible and thoughtful reply.

I would like to add that the FSM is an analogy for your god (or any god).
The way you feel about the FSM is the way I feel about your god.
The FSM is ridiculous to you. Both are ridiculous to me.

I'm not saying that your belief is ridiculous just trying to
get over how I (and presumably most atheists) feel about a deity.

Originally posted by divegeester
Please don't assume that my disagreement with you is reflective of a lack of "friendship"; but to my point, here you are.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby[/i] (OP)
"a result not the means"

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household [if they also believe]". Acts 16:31 Good works: a result not the means of salvation. Why risk flawed logic or rationalization on your eternal address? We're either for or against the person and substitutionary work of Christ [His reconciliation of us to God the Father]. Back in October, 2014.

No assumptions. Please accept my "Thanks for your friendship" at face value. I'm here despite "an unanticipated medically related setback". (Pg 2) Topic's about faith alone in Christ alone as the only means of happiness for eternity, not me or you.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Back in October, 2014.

Boy! Time flies!!!